Aerodynamics and Reality - MD Readers Respond, Part 2
Aerodynamics and Reality - MD Readers Respond, Part 2
Page 2 of 3
Someone needs to explain this to the guy's I smoke in the twisties on crotch rockets while riding my 950 adventure.
While I agree with you that riders used to dirt bikes and off road racing will be more comfortable with that type of seating position, the old time sport bike guys will probably like a more sport bike oriented position. Not extreme mind you, more like a BMW r1200s, a Honda VFR, or a mid '90s Ducati Supersport. Being one of the old time sport bike guys myself, riding a Multistrada S felt like a foreign language trying to ride it fast. And as you know, this is a really good handling bike. It would just take a while to feel at home with it.
The real downside to upright bikes like the SM's is that the trip to the twisties is almost as tedious, (but in a different way), as a sport bike.
I recently sold my 93 Katana 750. When I had it , I often asked myself if the fairing helped when riding in normal traffic. Not really, only at race track speeds. I also got tired of tearing the plastic off whenever I wanted to work on it. A fairing can be a canvas for some killer art work but hardly has any practicality in the real world. We need a return to the standard bikes (naked bikes) with great gas mileage for today's high gas prices. Your web site is one of my favorites...
Well, this is why I will always have a standard/naked bike in the garage... I can burn down the local backroads at any speed I like, humiliate most squids on the latest sport bikes if the mood strikes me, and be comfortable riding all day long on my ZRX-1200. My cousin often follows close behind on his R 1150 GS BMW with 17" wheels and sport rubber, and good friends on Tuono's, Bandit's, Z1000's are usually along as well. And in the garage, is a GSXR for track day duties, as well as an SV 650... because I try to ride with some restraint on the street. What is amazing is how slowly the standard/ naked bike idea is taking hold over here. In Europe, they are quite popular. Perhaps the Supermoto craze will help.
I'm 54 and still ride a dirtbike at a decent pace so I just naturally feel more comfortable in the upright position.
Not only do I feel more in control in a motard/adventure bike/dirt bike (upright) position, but my ability to see well down the road – and to be seen by other drivers – is much enhanced over the that of riders in either a crotch-rocket crouch or a way-down-low feet-forward reclining cruiser position.
Dirck, stop sniffing the castor bean oil and listen up for a minute. I think you are missing several important points regarding body position and its contribution to rider control.
One point is the riders weight is a significant percentage of the total weight. Lowering the roll center by body position, (using Honda Speak 'centering the mass') greatly contributes to the ease at which a bike can be transitioned from side to side. It can increase or decrease stability in a corner also.
Another related contribution is fore and aft weighting of the bike by moving the riders position. This adds or subtracts from available traction and can aid the rider in entering or exiting a corner.
You are correct in describing the contribution of style in bike design and I do agree that an upright position can help provide leverage on the bars when compared to a race tuck position. I think careful attention to setup can mitigate that however.
Of all motorcycle design, I think Aprilia has done the best job of the more upright position.
Aerodynamic improvements to bikes from racing have greatly aided todays rider compared to the boat anchors we used to ride. My Ducati 999S is very stable in strong cross winds, and comparing it to the upright position on my KTM 250 or my old skool 1981 (bought it brand new) Kawasaki KZ1000J is laughable.
Finally I would disagree with your statement that a supermoto is fast. Willow Springs Raceway's turn 8 is scary fast, as in "6th gear flat out crack the throttle to turn in fast" not 4th gear 4 stroke 450cc supermoto at the Grange fast.
Here on the central coast of the Golden State where I live and play, there are roads my Ducati is supreme and there are roads the motards rule.
Different strokes for different folks, but for a trip to Big Sur I'll take Il Nero, my Ducati.
As a rider who grew up on H1’s and CB 750’s with their ergonomically (up)right riding position,I could’t agree more!
At least in sane (i.e.legal) speeds this is a superior riding position regarding traffic overview and bike control.
It is also the correct riding posture regarding our back and neck and wrists,a subject which becomes more and more clearly as ones body ages…
Come to think of it,I meet a fairly high number of sportbikers resting their left elbow on the gas tank…..resting their neck and wrist.
But let the riders themselves choose,give us naked bikes with top of the shelf components,and mature riders “in the know” will
Buy them simply because og the comfort and consequently joy they provide while riding them!
You could not be more correct. I can easily go faster on my stock XR650L, with knobbies no less, than faster riders on sport bikes. Just as long as the road is tight enough so they can not use their horsepower advantage. With 25 more horsepower as I had on the Husqvarna NOX I owned for a while - I'm gone with even sliding the corners. I guess it's all those years racing Xcountry. I'm much slower on my 900SS by comparison.
I agree with you about the leaned over ergos on most sport bikes being a little overkill for typical street riding. I feel that the ergos on my ’06 Honda VFR are just about perfect – it has a full faring with slightly leaned over, relaxed ergos that are all-day comfortable (a nice compromise between the extreme ergos on most sports bikes, and bolt upright seating which can get a bit tiring at highway speeds). IMHO, it’s the perfect bike for old fat guys (like me) who want the sport bike look, but don’t have money in the budget for a chiropractor. Now if Honda will just upgrade the VFR to the V5 1000 cc I keep hearing about – a bit more torque and hp to haul my slightly oversized butt around….
For the street, I think you're right about aerodynamics, street bikes, and reality. On daily ridden roads, aerodynamics don't mean as much as they do on a race track. How is that? On speeds less than 75 mph or so, aero's don't account for as much of a HUGE gain as a lot of people think they do. Sure, aerodynamics DO have an affect, but it's all about the purpose of those aerodynamics. On a race track you're worried about downforce, high pressure, low pressure, or just getting the wind off the rider and around the bike as smooth as possible. But on the street, all of those mean very little. On the highway the main goal is to get air off of you so it's not so damned windy and/or loud (also for mileage). On back roads you're talking about sub-50 mph riding. Now THAT type of riding is where I think you're spot on that it has taken the introduction ,and growth of, supermotos in the industry to really hit home the notion that aerodynamics may not be as big of a deal for daily riden bikes as previously thought.
I've only been riding for 4 years and I'm almost ready to sell my viffer and buy a more naked bike for daily fun and commuting. Too bad there aren't any V4 nakeds out there. I just can't seem to get enough of the pull and the sound of that V4!
I tried the sport bike position and my 67 year old body said
"CHARLIE HORSE"
Besides, girls in convertibles look more interesting and then everything is upright.
As an old guy (51) who does a occasional track day every now and then on my R1 at a track like Sears Point, I must admit that when a fellow rider blows by me on a motard, I'm little jealous. Not because he's faster but because he's not working as hard as I am. More leverage along with less weight and less horsepower allows him to dive deeper in the turns and carry more speed. At Laguna Seca or Thunder Hill things might be different.
I have a 2008 KLR (I plan to motard) that I can hustle though tight turns faster than the R1 but nothing like the R1 for the high speed stuff. For comfort a ST1300 takes care of my touring needs. If you know of one bike that will do it all let me know and maybe I could get a car in my garage.
My thoughts,
I have ridden sport bike my entire thirty one years of riding.
I am an ex club road racer. I love to go fast!
I have just recently switched from sport bikes to a BMW R1200RT.
All I can say is WOW!
This bike can carve up a canyon road at ninety five percent the speed of a sport bike, while sitting upright and providing wind protection and comfort that no sportbike can approach.
I arrive home after ridding three hundred miles of winding roads and feel like I can go again.
Don't even get me started on how much better this bike is two up.
I couldn’t agree with you more. 8 years ago I was riding a ‘99 Ducati SS, which has ergonomics that are only marginally better than a 916. I sold that bike after 3 years and bought a Triumph Sprint RS, then after a few more years I got a Speed Triple. I’ve never been happier with a bike because it is so nearly ideal: it has better suspension and handling than either the Sprint or Duc plus it provides a more natural, relaxed, upright riding position. At any quasi-legal velocity, the Speed Triple is one of the sweetest, most enjoyable bikes there’s ever been. IMHO, a Tuono or 1050 Tiger are the only other bikes that come close to it – the former being a little racier, and the latter a little more versatile.
Amen.
Couldn't agree more, at least for the twistest of roads. Attached is a pic of me in my upright riding position, caused by a life long off-road racing habit. This is was taken at Deals Gap while I was way way ahead of my two knee dragging R1 mounted road racer wanabee buddies. I believe in really tight venues, like the Gap, the upright position isn't a liability at all, and actually allows you to "Throw" the bike side to side easier. It also permits you to transfer your weight front to rear quickly as well. When upright, I feel I have more control when the rear begins to slide so the fear of low-siding is lessened. However, in high speed sweepers even I revert to the classic road racer form.
Oh, boy.. this one's gonna get you some letters.
I've never been a big fan of race-bike ergos on street bikes. I love the looks, but not the effort it takes to ride one at normal speeds. But then I'm a 50-something with bad knees, so I couldn't ride a sportbike much beyond a trip to my chiropractor and back anyway. I am, however, a fan of naked bike ergos, with top-mounted, wider bars, mid controls and more of an "upright" riding position.
I've owned a Ducati Monster, a Triumph Speed Triple, and a R1200GS Beemer. I could ride the GS nearly as fast as he majority of the sportbike lads in the twisties and not seek medical attention at the end of the day. I couldn't keep up with them on the straights, but then I've ridden more than one big-inch V-Twin that will run sub-10 second quarter mile runs - in a straight line. I've surprised more than one sportbike rider with the GS in the mountains of western NC.. a GS will keep up with just about anyone on the twisties.
My current steed (the bike in my stable of seven that I ride most) is a relatively new R1200R. I haven't had it in the mountains, yet. Soon...
I demo'd a Ducati Hypermotard on the Blue Ridge Parkway last year, and I could see where a bike with Motard ergos would be as fast, if not faster than just about anything on two wheels - on the twisties. What a blast!, but I wouldn't want to spend all day in the seat looking over the bars of one, however.
Personally I think aerodynamics on a street bike are more about comfort than performance. If you are moving quickly enough on a 600cc machine that you are worried about aerodynamics you are embarrassing the rest of us. On the street I would be more worried about Suburbans than air molecules.
After 11 years of riding sportbikes my next ride will be a Kawasaki KLR650. Why change from a 2005 R6 to an enduro? My R6 was a fantastic bike, but for every day use in all kinds of traffic conditions the upright riding position is way more practical. Comfort is another factor with an upright riding position. After an hour on the R6 it was time for a long break. A ride on a 2008 KLR650 last year in many riding conditions was a surprise-I was not only having a great time, the KLR was easier to ride in traffic with greater comfort.
At 50+ years old reality is setting in that an upright riding position is necessary if I want to continue riding bikes. (No, I'm not going to ride a cruiser!!)
IMHO the design of the sport bikes is to keep the rider low because of wind resistance, if you put a cruiser windshield of a sport bike it wouldn't achieve the top speed it would with out it, besides, if the air flow wasn't a factor why at the end of a 160 mph run down the back straightway do they pop up at full arm length catching the wind to slow down, the actual design of the sport bikes body work passing air is debatable, there's more show than go difference. When you look back at the race bike design the only fairings that have been outlawed are the Norton, NSU and BMW dust bin design fairings, they were very effective, it would be interesting to see what would happen if one was put on a new generation 600.
Having been a streetbike rider off and on since 1974, I have to tell ya just one word - motard. In addition to other bikes, I've owned a '69 H1 triple Kawasaki, a Rickman framed 750 Honda, a Moto Guzzi 850 Le Manns, a GS 750 Suzuki, a RD 350 Yamaha, and a more recently, a ZRX 1200 Kawasaki...
NONE of these bikes even come close to the overall enjoyment I get from riding my lowly XR650L
duel-sport thumper Honda with 17" Excel wheels, Pirelli Diablo sport tires, Pro-Circut slip-on, 320mm front disk, and some jetting mods. This is certainly no KTM, but the satisfaction of giving a group of 5 sportbikes a good whoopin' on twisty Glendora Mountain Road is.. well... PRICELESS! - and they were filming themselves too! How sweet.
I don't think I will ever go back to a fat, heavy, slow-turming multi-cylinder bike. In fact, I rode a friend of mine's Ninja a couple weeks ago, and it felt like a road-toad. He rode the lowly Supermoto for about 10 Angeles Crest Highway miles, and now he can't get rid of his sportbike fast enough to pick up a 'Tard. Turns and stops on a dime, and then gives back change!
I certainly don't care for it's lower freeway speeds, but it doesn't draw "black and white" attention like a sportbike, being "just a dirtbike" - but once off the freeway and onto the sidestreets and twisties where the real riding happens, its all I can do to contain myself in just riding for the absolute joy of it!
It is FAR more enjoyable to ride a slow bike fast, than a fast bike slow. Any squid can point and shoot a hyper-speed sportbike in a straight line. It's funny, but whenever I have pulled up alongside a sportbike here in town at a stoplight and we both turn the corner at same time and I happen to scoot around it faster than him- without exception, he gets really upset and then blasts by me on the next straight like he's been shot out of a cannon - hilarious!
Street Supermoto - truly the best kept secret in all motorcycledom.
I kinda feel sorry for those guys who are paying sky-high insurance rates, getting triple-digit speeding tickets, eating up $250 apiece track tires in 1,000 street miles, and fighting a heavy, uncomfortable 160hp bike just to try to get it to go around a tight corner fast - and then get smoked by a 35 horsepower motard going around on the outside, the rider sitting comfortably upright, beeping his horn all the while.
I paid $1800 for the bike stock. $20 a month insurance...
PLEASE don't tell anyone the truth about those stupid looking "dirtbikes" on the street - because I am still smiling inside my helmet so much my face hurts! Shhhhhhhh.... Now where did I pass that RC-51??
I have ridden nakeds, and motards...
You can get me back on my R1. Its like riding from a crap whistley helmet, to a nice snug quiet one. sure you can get the gist.
I understand your point, but thats mine
The tighter the twisties the better a more upright riding position feels. Being upright gives a broader range of movement to better handle hairpins and decreasing radius turns. Fast sweepers or any corners where you are at lean for a long time feel better in a more prone position. These turns are predictable and getting through them is aided by a position that is less exposed to the airstream and more stable at speed, and which allows smooth, incremental side to side weight shifts.
I had a red/white/black 94 CBR 600F2 from 97 to 2005. I had heli riser bars on it and while riding around Highway 9 in the Santa Cruz mountains, figured out that holding the tank tight with my knees was wonderful to take the pressure off my wrists...nice reliable bike, fast and on those mountain roads and flowing curves, when I got it right it was pure heaven......
In 05 I walked into the showroom and saw a black DRZ 400SM with the gold front shocks and fell in love. Sold the F2 to a neighbor for a song and was soon riding the tight back roads in Austin, Texas where I now live and noticed how much more lean angle I was carrying through the curves...I missed the power of the 600, but it was more fun to ride a smaller bike harder through the curves. I was wearing the tires all the way to the end!! wow.
It took some getting used to the tall seat initially. A few months later I was riding with a buddy who had a SV650 and we traded bikes......suddenly I was so uncomfortable...the high knees up to my arse, ears down to my elbows position seemed so ridiculous to ride around on the street....boy was I glad to have the DRZ400SM back.
It is an absolute joy to watch accomplished racers wring the sportbikes around a race track. I have done a track day at Laguna Seca on my 600 and enjoyed the sensation of the great grip, speed and being so close to the ground (turn 10!!), but I don't have the time or money to keep doing track days to get better. My current bike is great to get to work on a quiet country road and is great for an hour early on a Saturday or Sunday morning to scratch around on a tight winding hilly road and get my fix. Let the wanna be hotshots crouch over the fast bikes , but I am content on my supermoto and am glad the manufacturers finally had the sense to bring us supermotos and upright naked bikes!!
I think you are absolutely right about riding position. Having ridden since 1970 on all sorts of bikes I have always been most comfortable with handle bars that are pretty much straight across and fairly wide (sometimes called long horns or Moto Cross bars). I feel that when the stuff gets deep I have more control over the front end from a sit up position as well as having better leverage to control a frame that isn’t doing what I want it to do. Once while riding my Land Yacht at about 70 on the freeway the front tire blue. From a sit up riding position with wide bars I was able to keep the 750 pound monster up right for a long time (my riding gear showed that I didn’t hit the pavement at more than about 25 mph). Sure the racers (and wanabys that ride too fast) might get a bit more speed for the available power by tucking in behind the tiny sport fairings but for control and better vision I’ll take an upright any day.
Lets get one thing straight first, I'm 27yrs old and I'm in excellent shape. My wrists don't hurt on a sportbike, and my back is fine, even after a long trip.
That being said, I own a 2001 Ducati Monster S4, and I recently traded my 2004 RSVR Factory for an equal year Tuono. I've gone on several cross country trips on my '92 Nighthawk.
There is no benefit for me to be almost lying down on a bike. I believe that I can handle a motorcycle MUCH better when i'm sitting upright. It's simply more natural feeling. I could never get comfortable on the RSVR. I felt odd trying to steer it around curves. I have no problem going around the same curves and dragging a knee on the Tuono or the Monster however.
As the owner of a 2003 Speed Triple i can assure you i have blasted past many a full faired sportbike as if it were a cruiser. part of that is rider skill /experience i guess.
But realistically on the street, Naked bikes rule.
I have ridden road and race bikes since the 60's and have always been surprised by the gap between the reality of the crouch race position and its effectiveness on fast highway road riding. I recall 1974 and 1975 when my road bike was a BMW R75 and my race bike a now legendary Ducati 750SS. The Duc was licensed and often I would ride the same 20 mile stretch in SE Ohio on both bikes the same weekend. With the occassionally poor pavement, possible oncoming traffic, leaves, debris, etc., the Duc would be uncertain with the very low bars, no elbow leverage and stretched out position. In this very twisty, hilly 20 miles I routinely was several minutes faster with the lower powered, drum braked, 4 speed R75 than the wonderfully sophisticated 750SS. Late in 1975 I took both bikes up to Nelson Ledges, where I had raced in 2 24 hour races and many sprints with the Duc. Needless to say, on the Duc I was almost 5 sec per lap faster...there is your point, 30 years ago. Race bikes are marvelous, formula 1 performance, on a track. Given the limits of the highway, no matter how wonderful the road, give me the leverage of the upright, bent arm position any day. Of course, its great to have both bikes available. The past is prologue, some say.
Yes, You want wide bars for leverage with your weight forward to keep the front planted.
Superbike bars, torque motor, slight rear set on the feet but still able to shift body weight
Will you please stop spreading the notion that an upright riding position translates to superior control of a motorcycle in the twisities? Next you'll be telling everyone that a broad torque band and a low center of gravity will make the average rider a better canyon carver than a hair-trigger throttle and brick-wall brakes!
Do you have any idea what that will do to the street cred of us old guys on airhead BMWs?
Couldn’t agree more . The sit-up position of a Dual sport, Super Motto is relaxing . The wide bars provide not only leverage, but place the bars so that the pectoral muscles can do part of the job of controlling the bike. In addition, the feet are under the rider, where there can be more pressure on the foot pegs, allowing for weighting of the chosen peg, giving, even more control of the bike. Rear sets to a degree, take this ability away . I currently ride a F650 Dakar BMW , that I’ve ridden nearly 70,000 miles, and have owned several other BMW starting with the R90S, K75S, R1100S and the K1200RS . All with fairly low bars. Along with being narrow. .The Dakars riding position best all of those above in the control and comfort areas.
I own and ride sportbikes,motards,dual-sports,street trackers,et al.Agreed,anything above 60-70mph,unless you're on a cruiser going straight,sportbike-like position isn't necessary.And unless you're tucked in behind that fairing,it isn't necessary,either.I can ride quicker on twisties with dirttrack/off-road bars than anything else,albeit tighter radius turns.
you are also much more comfortable for long rides.
This is something I've thought about myself having recently owned a DL1000 and an FZ1 and FZ6 and 599 as well as a CBR1000 and CBR600 and an R1. It's the exact reverse for me and my very fast riding partner. We both tried the upright position courtesy of the above mentioned bikes and two different KTMs - Duke and SuperDuke - and found that clip-ons and weight over the front wheel made for more confidence and higher corner speeds. I did find that my DL1000 would kick the ass of an R1 when the curving pavement became rough and broken. Long travel suspension made the difference. On smoother pavement the shorter travel suspension of the R1 would compress less and recover sooner and made for a faster ride. I guess we should ask Valentino or Casey whether, discounting the wind, they would go faster with an upright position.
<< Previous Page | 1 | | Next Page >> | 3 |
©Copyright Motorcycle Daily, LLC. All rights reserved. No part of this service may be reproduced, reprinted or republished in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise without written permission from Motorcycle Daily, LLC.
|
Copyright
© Motorcycle Daily, LLC
|
