On June 7, 2007, I wrote about the possibility of replacing the 250cc GP class with a four-stroke class and I asked for your opinions on proper engine size and timing. Below, in their unedited form, are the many responses we received.
- The replacement of 2 strokes with 4 strokes in the Moto GP 250 class seems to be the logical next step since the industry has been moving in that direction for some time now. However, I just don’t get why it’s necessary with Moto GP. With motocross racing it’s understandable because bike manufacturers are trying to race what they sell, but with Moto GP this is not the case. I don’t see how it would benefit the fans either. The bikes will be super loud like the 800’s, and the racing action won’t be any better. Perhaps the manufacturers can generate interest in their products by offering “moto gp derived technology” in their production bikes, but if the 250 class changed to four stroke, we would once again see engine displacements and configurations that would never make it to the street. As a fan, all I can say is that I want to see the best riders in the world competing closely on the fastest bikes. I want to see races decided by riders, not engines. This year the 800 class seems to be more about the bike, and less about the rider. Perhaps, if the 250 class does give way to a new four stroke class, the Moto GP brass can do more to promote parity, perhaps by restricting manufacturers to one type of cylinder configuration. 600 cc’s seems like the wrong displacement for this new 4 stroke class. The old thinking was to simply double the two stroke displacement when a race bike was converted to four stroke. We saw what happened to the moto GP 990’s, and right now the AMA is pondering reducing 450’s to a smaller displacement because of too much power. That being said, the engine size of this new class should be between 400 and 500 cc’s.
- Make it a 350 or 400cc class with up to 3 cylinders and a very low weight limit.All about corner speed not drag strip straights.
- I think 400cc four-strokes would be a fitting replacement for 250cc GP. 400cc Japanese ‘grey import bikes’ already race alongside 250cc two strokes in production club racing in Australia, and 400cc is a well established capacity in the domestic Japanese market. 400cc
also happens to be half of MotoGP’s current engine capacity of 800cc.
- I think we should replace the out dated two stroke 250s with 500cc four stroke, as pointed out there are plenty of 600cc classes and GP should be something special. I would propose normally aspirated four stroke engines engines of 500cc, no other restrictions would apply, not weight, not cylinder number, nor number of gears.
Secretly I hope that with a few years development the 500 could once again become the premier class.
- I love 2-strokes (I ride an Aprilia RS250 on the street and race it too). I’d hate to see them go because racing is the source of innovation. I’d like to see an imposition of exhaust pollution constraints. They could be enforced by testing before and after the race just the way they enforce noise regulations. They there would be incentive to develop some of the “clean 2-stroke” technology that Cagiva and Oribital and others have experimented with but never fully developed.
As for what 4-stroke displacement would be appropriate, 400cc twins would give the same performance.
- Replacing the 250cc class with 600cc bikes is not a good idea for the following reasons:
-What is wrong with the 250cc bikes? The best GP riders are 250 graduates like Rossi, Stoner, Pendrosa, etc.
-The 125cc riders will have to make a giant leap in performance when it’s time to move up. Do you eliminate the 125 class?
-As said before, there are many other 600 class races.
-Cost. How much will the 600 class bike cost compared to the 250’s.
– If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!!!
- I reckon the logical step would be to limit the capacity to 4 cylender 400cc bikes, as per road bikes a 250 2stroke makes roughly the same power as a 400 stroke around 60 BHP, I love the little grey imports bikes and they already rev to around 14000 rpm- imagine 19000 rpm around 100 BHP little 400’s but full prototypes like VFRs and CBRs etc.
- Fantastic idea, but 600cc is too big and too close to the premiere displacement. I believe Aprilia has shown the way with it’s 450/550 twins (with 450 sounding to be right for this new class), and just think of all the new street bikes those tasty engines could power. Can’t wait.
- I’d like to see the 250 class replaced with four-strokes. It was pulled off with motocross (125 becoming “lites”). However, I don’t want to see another field of 600s. Go smaller, for those of us who remember sub-500’s fondly.
let’s see a new displacement division..400-450, specifically designed for promote small-engine advancement.
- It would seem that replacing the 250s (á la motocross 250cc 2T to 450cc 4T) would be logical.
But something involving alternative fuel racing is long overdue, for both cars and motorcycles. With the Isle of Man TT races having celebrated it’s 100th year this week, we’ve been able to see the evolution of the machines which first made their way round the Island verses today’s 129+mph (lap average!) superbikes.
Many of the true advances were made my men in sheds with dream or idea, not just big factories. Whether or not you like motorcycle racing, the impact that it has had on EVERY machine today can be seen from the archives. Racing improves the breed is an absolutely accurate statement. If the internal combustion engine has a limited future, we’ll want to see someone winning races with a certain technology before we want to buy into it.
- i would like to see the motogp 250 class be a champion for the return off the 2 stroke. the outboard motor world has proved that clean 2 stroke technology works and at least one euro scooter manufacturer use direct injection like the outboard motors such as evinrude.
the 2 stroke is important to motorcycling as they are much cheaper to produce and the manufacturers can promote that if they start using direct injection on their race bikes.
also on the motogp class instead of further size reductions to reduce speed they should restrict noise which should slow the bikes, at least until they develop systems that restrict noise but not power. we will definitely benefit from that!
great e-mag! keep up the good work.
- I personally would love to see what the manufacturers could do with limited displacement 4 strokes. Let’s face it, 2 strokes are interesting hut have no use outside motogp and chainsaws. If racing is to have any real-world value outside entertainment then the development of efficient and powerful 4 stroke technology would be that.
I though the half half scheme (500 250 125) was clever – so if we are staying with 3 classes and the top remains 800cc then we have a 400cc and 200cc class of 4 strokes.
It would be more elegant if it were 1000cc 500cc 250cc and probably more transferrable to future street models.
This would be a marketing bonanza. 500 and 250 race replicas? Cool, fast, sporty bikes with big aftermarket perhaps less likely to kill young riders who might select a Repsol 250?
Hey, MX basically doubles the cc of the 2 strokes they replaced 450 250 150 (for 250 125 80 classes). Look at the thumper technology advancement there…impressive.
I say MotoGP go 4 stroke and we see more exotic/lighter valvetrain materials and schemes, improved injection technology and engine management…
All the 600 supersport and superbike etc classes showcase great riders. MotoGP showcases great riders and bikes – I find that more interesting to watch bike development happen real-time during the season. Nicky not in the top 10? Rossi getting the Yamaha developed to match that amazing Ducati 800cc introduction? Sweeeet.
- Keep the 250cc two stroke class the way it is. They carry a lot of corner speed, the lead changes are entertaining to watch, and the sound of the ring dings should be preserved for people that have no idea what or how a 2 stroke works.
- Support class MUST be a GP class, not a street bike class.
Twin cylinder 4 stroke 550cc engine. Complete motorcycles need to be available to anyone world wide and raced in the U.S. Keep 125cc 2 strokes or go to 450 single 4 strokes.
- If regards to the story, replacing the 250 class with a 600 class doesn’t seem viable. How far would 600cc be from the current 800cc? They will be modified 600cc and I predict almost as fast as the 800cc class. Many of the up and coming racers start in the 250cc class. Now don’t get me wrong, adding a 600 class would be fun to watch at the MotoGP level, but don’t get rid of the 250cc class in favor of the 600cc class.
- A 400cc, 4 cylinder, 4-stroke design would be cool. They’re 1/2 the size of the premier class, so it would follow in the footsteps of the 500cc/250cc GP history. Furthermore, these bikes could be based on production models. I believe that 400cc bikes are popular outside of America and perhaps having a 400cc class could revive the class in the States. I think that 400cc bikes would be popular with trackday riders and could create new racing classes in the United States. Of course getting the manufacturers to agree is an entirely different story!
- I do agree that a class of 600cc four-strokes would be very boring. But I think the change to 4strokes is necessary to make the Moto GP2 (or whatever it’s called) relevant for the stock-market.
Personnally I would love to see 500cc-V2-Bikes as well as on track as on road. Something like this:
http://www.rsvr.net/shop/custom.asp?recid=7
- I don’t think 600cc platform would be a good idea. Start out with something like they did with the original MotoGP. 600cc single, 550cc twin, 500cc triple, 450cc four, 400cc five, 350cc six.
Don’t want young kids on R6s, etc. thinking they’re the next Valentino two days after they got the bike.
- Please don’t get rid of the 250’s, to me a proper road race bike is a two stroke and the sweet song they sing would be sorely missed. As for an additonal support class how about a super charged 400cc four stroke prototype (no production parts, ala moto gp) only class.
- Hi,
Two smoke anything is very passe. The GP series of any motorsport is now a sounding board for the future.
Open environmental loops should be closed where possible.
Mixing oil with “gas” is not “IT” anymore.
A 4X class 350/450, restricted to E10, or better yet E85 will support the GP foremat, and provide valueable engineering breakthrus for the future both in performance [we’re headed there anyway], and environmental consideration.
Both of these issues run hand in hand anyway.
- As they exist with current technology, 2-strokes are nearly dead for emissions & fuel economy reasons,so I agree, the 250’s have little relevance today. I suggest-either a new 500 class-four stroke only-or a new 350 class-also 4 stroke only. We have all been spoiled by the power and competence of 600 & up road sport bikes-but little technological effort has been spent on those two classes- either for road or competition. They used to be common and considered “mid range” sized motorcycles. Now, with all of the 160 mph 600’s-(frankly they are much too fast for beginners), some time and effort should be spent improving technology on smaller classes. Clearly the old 4-stroke 500’s from MV/Honda/Benelli etc used to be great spectator faire in old 500 racing at GP level, and with today’s engine technology, they would certainly not be slow. For the 350’s,you might even consider a single’s only class. That would be much less expensive for manufacturers and for privateers.
- I agree that a 600cc class MotoGP class might not be the right choice. By today’s standards a 250cc class might be a tad small for much interest in this country. There’s recently been talk that the current 800cc ceiling in MotoGP might lower still another 100cc. How about a 450cc class? That would most likely require a rethink of engine configuration rather than a somewhat boring inline four (to me). Have rules that favor factories to pull out all the stops in engine design and I’d be interested.
- So, in the event of “too much cost” why not have a class that will incorporate the current 450cc moto-cross motors and let them be put in the former 250 GP bike frames. Speeds will be similar, as in the experiment of eliminating the 500cc GP two-strokes in favor of the 990cc GP four-strokes. I think the light-weights should remain !!
- 250cc two-strokes in MotoGP is totally worthless. We can’t even get close to relating it to any bike that we can buy.
Since the big ones are only 800cc now, I’m not sure what makes sense but perhaps smaller than 600cc, or limit the number of cylinders, or something like that. How about naked bikes:-)
- The 4-stroke single cylinder motors (and two cyl. in the case of the new Aprilias) used for motocross and supermoto would be a good choice. Right now the number is 450cc. I heard that they might change it to 350cc. Either way, using these in GP will push their development and end up improving the class of motors for consumer use.
- In my opinion it’s really not needed. The best riders in MotoGP are guys who have come up though the ranks riding 125’s then 250’s which really teach you to ride. The riders who are coming out of supersport racing are going on to WSB and not many crossover. All that being said didn’t you love it last year when Bayliss came in at the end of MotoGP from WSB and won. I don’t think he could consistently do that though a MotoGP season but wouldn’t you like to see him try.
- I think the change is inevitable. There is not much still holding onto that technology. I’ll have to disagree with the obvious choice of 600cc. I think the displacement should start like Moto GP did (double the displacement), start with 500cc. To say that there are already 600cc class races would be like saying Moto GP was just another 1 liter class last year. One of the attractions to the sport for me is the technology race that goes on as well. If they go four stroke, they could race in the states too.
- “Recommend 500cc displacement, twin cylinder, six-speed transmission four stroke equipment for a new ‘Twins’ support class for MotoGP.” After industry review, it appears existing or new vendors could participate within this class at minimal development expense and offer low-moderate cost product to participants.
- It’s definitely time to replace the two strokes. 600cc is too close to the 800cc premier class so perhaps the ideal displacement would be 400cc. If possible though, it would be nice to remove the rule that manufacturers cannot base their bikes on production based machinery – I would love to be able to buy a 400cc MotoGp replica!
- I think the 250’s should be switched to 4-stroke, but I think it should be done with 450 4-strokes from motocross bikes. They would not technically be “prototypes” but everything but the engine could be. Besides the manufacturers have already spent a lot of money developing these motors. All of the manufacturers in GP’s now have a 4-stroke 450 in their motocross bike lineup, particularly KTM and Aprilia who have threatened to leave if the switch is to 600’s. Even BMW and Buell are rumored to have 450 engines on the way. We could see twins and singles battling it out with different engine configurations having different requirements (minimum weight, etc.) just like the big class. And it would also be good for the series that the difference in lap times between 450’s and 800’s would be much greater than the difference between 600’s and 800’s. And if the transition went well then they could also look at switching the 125’s to 250 4-strokes too.
- Oh I definitely think that IF they replace the two stroke 250s in MotoGP it should be with 400cc four strokes. Then just wait and let one of the manufacturers produce a 400cc race replica sportbike for the streets/track.
I’m sure Honda and/or Yamaha could use many of the same parts from their current race replica 600s. Maybe we could see 800cc become the new top of the line race replica class and move the 1000cc+ bike more into a GT role.
I’m sure Ducati would hate that since they just left the liter mark. Or maybe theres room for 400s, 600s and 800s like for a while how there were 600s, 750s and 900/1000s? The new liter bikes are getting pretty insane and 600s have improved leaps and bounds over the 600s of the mid 90s. All the 400cc race replica that I’ve seen were from the late 80s maybe early 90s, just imagine them with 2007 tech.
- How about something like Forumula Extreme? Full-on superbike versions of the 600s would give the manufacturers a forum to advertise their most sales-competitive class in a manner not quite like anything else going on the worldwide stage, as well as perhaps providing a better training ground than 250s or superbikes for the 800s.
- I see a 450cc as the logical replacement to the 250 class. Much of the technology would immediately make its way into dirt and Supermoto class engines as well as starting the 400cc class repli-racer class back up. I think we will see highly tuned, low hour 4 stroke motors being offered by the big 4 using the technology gleaned from MotoGP. They will follow Aprilia’s Supermoto lead in producing highly tuned, yet fragile low hour, race winning motors. This will lead to a technology race to produce lower maintenance intervals on these screamers.
- The size they need to use is 400cc bikes. We in the states don’t understand that in most of the world the 400cc class is a place to see close and exciting racing. BIGGER is not always better. CBR400, ZX4 and GSXR400 are great bikes if the imported them, but that will never happen in this testosterone addled society.
- My understanding is that the reduced output and weight of the new 800 cc machines allow them to corner faster than before, more like a current 250 cc two stroke. Maintaining high corner speeds is a skill developed in the 125/250 cc two stroke feeder classes for MotoGP. I think that explains in some part the recent success of riders like Pedorsa, Stoner, Elias and Melandri, all superb 250 cc riders. I don’t see many riders coming up through the World Supersport ranks, as an example of an existing 600 cc feeder class. Apart from the inherent uniqueness these days of the two stroke classes, I think it’s the similiarities in riding style shared with the current crop of MotoGP bikes that make the 250s so important.
- Why not doing a 400cc class? There are plenty of markets around the world that use that displacement. Unfortunately, here in the US we don’t. It would be a nice way of marketing that size category. 400cc machines are very nimble and fun to ride. I used to own one years ago back home in Peru. Just my two cents.
- Personally I‘d hate to see the 250 cc 2-strokes go. They have a nostalgia factor and in practical terms they keep the competition pretty equal and the costs lower than comparable 4-strokes. However progress is inevitable and the 2-strokes have become somewhat anachronistic.
To avoid conflict and confusion with the many 600cc classes currently out there, I think a 400 or 450 cc 4-stroke with a rule that escalates the weight with the number of cylinders (just as in Moto GP) would be the way to go. Some of the current 250cc players like Aprilia and KTM could probably compete with the big factories in this class.
- I think a smaller displacement 4 stroke (other than 600cc) would be really competitive. It would be interesting to see how well they would develop 400 cc motorcycle engines. I know they use them in other countries but it would be cool to see them on the circuit….
- I foresee the MotoGP class coming down from 800, so I think 600 is too big. I think 450 would work. Number of cylinders is a question though. Four cylinders would be too much like common street bikes. I think three would create a unique architecture and sound. I worry about the cost of screaming 100hp 450s but I think that is bullet we may have to bite. Maybe twins would be better. I am trying to think in terms of companies producing race bikes in the mold of the 250 two strokes. I find the idea of race only 450 twins or triples exciting. The AMA nationals have been lacking something since the demise of the 250 class
- It is time that the smaller displacement classes be overhauled and unfortunately the 2 stokes will be gone. There is no displacement that makes more sense than any other, but there does need to be a marked difference in performance to the other classes. 200cc and 400cc, or more traditionally, 250cc and 500cc, would make more sense than a 600cc class. The most important thing for the classes is to make them part of the current technology. Critical will be to remove the restrictions on the engines and transmissions thus allowing
development. This is racing at the highest levels, not club racing.
The increased excitement in the smaller classes would make for more exposure and larger audiences worldwide. The other aspect is that increased interest and sophistication of the bikes would increase interest in those displacement sizes in the marketplace. Opening a
market in North America that has been all but invisible for years.
That is the incentive for the manufacturers. Maybe not all manufacturers would compete in all classes, but if there was more equal interest in all of the classes then wins in the smaller classes would have more impact in sales.
The interest in all classes in the 60’s was fueled in a large part by the astounding performance and technical achievement the very few restrictions on the bikes allowed.
I wonder how many rpm a 125cc V8 would spin??
- Absolutely the 250 class should be replaced with a 4 stroke class but I don’t see any reason to mess with the previous formula of the class being made up of bikes with half the motor size of the larger class. This would bring us 400cc racing which I would believe Apriia would be at the fore front with their RSV motors. In GP form these 400 or 450cc machines could attain over 100HP in 200lb chasis. Sounds like fun to me.
- After a bit of thought, it seems that a smaller displacement class would be most exciting, say in the 350-450 cc range, and of course in whatever configuration seemed best by the manufacturer( As it should be). Just imagine the song a 4, 5, or 6 cylinder 350 4-stroke would make with the current technology allowing rev ceilings in the neighborhood of 20k plus rpm. This would be necessary to make sufficient power to be competitive. And it would harken back to the days of the the Honda 350 six cylinder campaigned in the 70’s. Plus the added bonus would be that the larger displacement class would reap the benefits of the greater understanding of volumetric efficiency that the smaller beasts would require to make power.
- KEEP the 2 strokes!
- I’d sure like to see this happen. My “displacement” pick would be 400cc. It’d be great to see a resurgence of bikes like the Honda CB400F with truly modern technological developments. Can’t think of a better amateur track bike than something like that , and a “standard” version would be a great “starter” bike for the new riders.
- I don’t see anything wrong with the 250cc 2-stroke support class. But if they’re going to go with a 4-stroke, then why not 400cc? Anyone who remembers the Yamaha FZR400 as an agile, quick bike will hope for some sort of homologated version as well!
- Regarding replacing the 250cc MotoGP class with a four-stroke class — personally I think this would be a good idea. And you’re right, a 600cc class would be a bit pointless because there are already plenty of those.
What I’d love to see would be a class limited to a displacement of 500cc and three or fewer cylinders. Twins and triples would keep the bikes relatively narrow and nimble, and there are enough potential engine configurations to keep things interesting.
Alternatively, make the class 350-400cc and open it up to pie-in-the-sky design. Honda had a lot of success with the RC166 250cc six-cylinder in the ’60s; no reason manufacturers couldn’t develop compact V-6, I-6, even V-8 engine designs. The biggest disadvantage here would be that it would make the mid-size MotoGP class substantially more interesting than the large-displacement class.
- Production based (cases/barrell/head) 450 singles, every manufacturer has one. Unlimited chassis/suspension.
- What would be really exciting, interesting, and unique, race box stock cruisers! Boulevard M109s against Yamaha Warriors and Honda VTX 1800s. 600cc sport bikes, everyones doing that. Look how sucessful that Nascar stock car racing is. This would be much more exciting!
- I think the idea of a 4 Stroke support class for MotoGP is long over due. 2 Stroke street bikes are such a small part of the market place that they are not even relevant. I think that the MotoGP series should be the top level experiential motorcycles that will eventually trickle down to production motorcycles.
If we are going to stick to low-tech 2 strokes why not require dust bin farings of the 1950’s, pudding bowl helmets, etc. Let’s move into the 21st century and let the manufactures show what they can do with smaller displacement engines, such as 400-600 cc.
- Overall, it would be a bad idea to replace the two strokes. In comparison to a four stroke racing bike the maintenance is very inexpensive. This allows more second tier team to compete which allows more riders to learn the circuits and be observed by the MotoGP team managers. If we replace the two stroke twins with 450cc four stroke twins the same factory riders will be winning the championship but we will make it more expensive and difficult for the other teams.
- Cost. It has to be feasable for the factories and privateer teams to run. Everywhere you see the cost issue popping up and I know that no one wants to GP feeder classes to be based on production motorcycles. So, the way I would compromise and come up with something to replace the 250 class that could also produce a fun class to race on a national or club level – is singles. 500 cc max 4-stroke singles. Everyone wants a TZ250 frame with a 450 4-stroke motorcrosser engine wedged in, right? I do anyway, it would be a fantastic club racing class and would hopefully keep the costs down as compared to the insane development costs of the GP bikes. The other added benefit would be the uniqueness of the class, as I can imagine no one wants it too close to the World Supersport class. One final upside is that it would not be as hard a transition for the OEMs to take a 500cc look-a-like single cylinder GP bike and get it to market. Detune for reliability, gear for torque, add some blinkers and off you go. I’d leave the 125s in place for the kids.
- A very good question… While I personally enjoy tinkering with two-strokes, they are increasingly irrelevant, and I’d like to see 350-400cc four stroke action. Being GP, there’s certainly no need to align with a production class (e.g. 600cc).
- Twin 450cc four strokes should do the trick. It would keep them light and probably almost have the same power.
- Since there are 4 strokes produced in virtually all displacements, any cc that is selected will have something of similar cc in production.
Even the current series displacement of 800cc is very close to the old superbike displacement of 750cc (and BMW now make an 800cc machine).
The best displacement would probably be in the 450 to 500cc area. The bike could maintain the nimble handling of the 250 2 smokes and still have some serious grunt.
- They should do the same displacement increase that motocross did when moving from two strokes to four strokes and that would be to move from 250 two strokes to 450 four strokes. MotoGP should move the 250 two stroke class to a 450 or 500 four stroke class.
- Why fix the 250GP class if it isn’t broken. I look at the support GP racing has in general and only dream of that type of popularity here in the states.
- 600cc 4-stroke class is NOT a good idea; cost and such would propel the manufacturer’s costs beyond their returns.
Suggestion: 250cc turbo/supercharged engines would fit the bill. There’s already some effort in this market in scooterville, and the thought of some street bike trickle down to us consumers would really sound great.
- Build a class around the new four stroke 450 motocross bikes.
- To reinvigorate the 750cc sport bike class, they should have a support class that is 750cc with Superstock type rules. Using close-to-stock 750cc would assure that the performance delta between the premier class and the support class was still significant, but the transition between the two would be easier to make for the up and coming riders. It would also be a step up from the regional/national 600cc competitions. Plus I just think that 750cc bikes are the idea compromise of power, weight and handling.
- I think that if 2-stroke 250’s get replaced, a hyperventilating 400cc foour stroke four cylinder machine should do the job. Unleash the 400cc supersport bikes they sell in Japan. Come to think of it, bring those machines to the States while your at it.
My personal opinion (sentimental opinion) is to put the technology into the 2 strokes and bring them back to the North American market. I would love to see a 500cc v-four 2 stroke supersport again like they had in Canada (Yamaha and Suzuki). With correct port timing and direct injection, it can be as clean as any 4 stroke out there.
- Leave the GP class at 800cc
250cc two stroke to 600cc twins in V and or pparallel formation.
125cc two stroke to 400cc or 450cc singles.
All class running pneumatic valves.
I have thought long and hard and these class arrangements make the most since to me. 800cc will get too fast and will need to be made smaller which is only a matter of time. 600cc twins will never be as fast as a in-line 600cc, so 800cc can be made smaller without worry of out preforming the premier class. 600cc twins can be developed for the street into bigger capacity super twins and 600cc twins don’t infringe any other 600cc class rules either. 400 or 450cc singles can be developed racing classes such as Supercross and Outdoor. Also for street applications too.
- Thanks for asking our opinions about this. Here is what I would like to
see:
Replace the 125 class with 200cc single four strokes, otherwise the rules should stay the same.
Replace the 250 class with 400cc twin and 500cc singles four strokes (basically a twin of the smaller class and half of the MotoGP class), otherwise the rules should stay the same.
If you look to the motocross world, the 125 two-strokes were replaced by 250cc four-strokes that immediately outperformed the 125s so I think 250 cc was a bit to large and that is why I think 200cc is better. Plus the 200cc fits better into the 25% of the MotoGP displacement. Similar arguments for the 400cc twin class. The 500cc single should be allowed so that there can be some allowance for other engine configurations.
Initially, the rules should not require a “pure prototype” requirement as required by MotoGP as in my opinion, the 200 and 400 classes should allow modified production engines so as to reduce costs and provide more privateer opportunities. These rules should also be promulgated into the respective national championships.
- With the manufacturers wanting to find new entry level buyers, maybe 500cc four stroke twins would be interesting. They’d be roughly the same power as the 250 two strokes and would still be pretty light. Plus, maybe some new entry level 500cc twin sport bikes would pop onto the scene.
- Four strokes are a lot more expensive to build and run than two strokes so they need to come up with a formula that doesn’t reduce the field due to lack of funds. 450 twins maybe?
- The formula used when they ran the 500’s was half 500 1/2 =250, 250 1/2 =125 It seemed to work for them then and it could now 800 1/2 =400, 400 1/2 =200.And thus you have your classes 800,400,200. I think it is a good idea to change as the only 2 strokes the average person sees now a days are in leaf blowers,weed eaters and chain saws
- Well, yes there are 600 series out there, but what about 600 Vtwin only ? More and more bikes are coming with VTwin today and it;s a great engine (Suzuki 650 SV/Vstrom, Aprilia Shiver, Aprilia 450/550 Supermoto, Kawasaki ER/Versus etc..etc..
so a serie just with twin 600 Maximum which at the end would deliver about 1/2 the power of the GP bike (just like now for the 250) would be great and would for sure benefit the customer at the end with new technologies.
I would love to see that.
- I don’t see anything wrong with the 250cc 2-stroke support class. But if they’re going to go with a 4-stroke, then why not 400cc? Anyone who remembers the Yamaha FZR400 as an agile, quick bike will hope for some sort of homologated version as well!
- Regarding replacing the 250cc MotoGP class with a four-stroke class — personally I think this would be a good idea. And you’re right, a 600cc class would be a bit pointless because there are already plenty of those.
What I’d love to see would be a class limited to a displacement of 500cc and three or fewer cylinders. Twins and triples would keep the bikes relatively narrow and nimble, and there are enough potential engine configurations to keep things interesting.
Alternatively, make the class 350-400cc and open it up to pie-in-the-sky design. Honda had a lot of success with the RC166 250cc six-cylinder in the ’60s; no reason manufacturers couldn’t develop compact V-6, I-6, even V-8 engine designs. The biggest disadvantage here would be that it would make the mid-size MotoGP class substantially more interesting than the large-displacement class.
- Production based (cases/barrell/head) 450 singles, every manufacturer has one. Unlimited chassis/suspension.
- What would be really exciting, interesting, and unique, race box stock cruisers! Boulevard M109s against Yamaha Warriors and Honda VTX 1800s. 600cc sport bikes, everyones doing that. Look how sucessful that Nascar stock car racing is. This would be much more exciting!
- I think the idea of a 4 Stroke support class for MotoGP is long over due. 2 Stroke street bikes are such a small part of the market place that they are not even relevant. I think that the MotoGP series should be the top level experiential motorcycles that will eventually trickle down to production motorcycles.
If we are going to stick to low-tech 2 strokes why not require dust bin farings of the 1950’s, pudding bowl helmets, etc. Let’s move into the 21st century and let the manufactures show what they can do with smaller displacement engines, such as 400-600 cc.
- Overall, it would be a bad idea to replace the two strokes. In comparison to a four stroke racing bike the maintenance is very inexpensive. This allows more second tier team to compete which allows more riders to learn the circuits and be observed by the MotoGP team managers. If we replace the two stroke twins with 450cc four stroke twins the same factory riders will be winning the championship but we will make it more expensive and difficult for the other teams.
- Cost. It has to be feasable for the factories and privateer teams to run. Everywhere you see the cost issue popping up and I know that no one wants to GP feeder classes to be based on production motorcycles. So, the way I would compromise and come up with something to replace the 250 class that could also produce a fun class to race on a national or club level – is singles. 500 cc max 4-stroke singles. Everyone wants a TZ250 frame with a 450 4-stroke motorcrosser engine wedged in, right? I do anyway, it would be a fantastic club racing class and would hopefully keep the costs down as compared to the insane development costs of the GP bikes. The other added benefit would be the uniqueness of the class, as I can imagine no one wants it too close to the World Supersport class. One final upside is that it would not be as hard a transition for the OEMs to take a 500cc look-a-like single cylinder GP bike and get it to market. Detune for reliability, gear for torque, add some blinkers and off you go. I’d leave the 125s in place for the kids.
- Perhaps along the lines of our current Formula Extreme where 600cc machines can be modified well beyond supersport restrictions encouraging individual innovation. No horsepower limits. Very low minimum weight limits classed by # of cylinders and cooling.
- I believe changing to 4 cycle is inevitable but 600cc is to close to the 800cc premier class size, 500cc twins or triples would be a more obvious choice in my opinion.
- Whatever is the final decision, how’za’bout promoting the rotary engine a little bit?
Instead of banning or crippling the engine with a phony multiplier ( “2x displacement” comes to mind) , why not promote a little competition for something new?
By way of an introduction, consider “Formula Racing” to “What You Can Buy”:
Norton ran their 588 cc twin rotor with a 1.7 multiplier ( = 999 cc)
when they tore up the British scene 20 odd years ago. Now, they are slightly behind the curve of 4 cylinder 4 stroke technology although the NRV-588 might turn some heads.
The old system used to work fine: 1000 cc, 750 cc, 500 cc with 650 twins as an odd sort of functional size. Today we have an unusual assortment that settles into 1000 cc, 600 cc 4cyl/4stroke and a class that tends to be “Other”. Honda appears happy with the 800 cc limit today at the highest level so it’s gonna stay that way.
The point is that racing should be re-aligned to promote the logical progression that used to be considered natural.
World Superbike: 1000 cc, and please leave the “> than 1000 cc”
possibilities alone, no matter the number of cylinders.
MotoGP: Drop down to 750 cc as a suggestion but if the Big 4 who run the show want 800, who’s gonna stop ’em?
Finally: Acknowledge reality. The bulk of the purchases are at the 600 class level and the technology makes this the obvious choice.
This is the “Support Level Class”
And the Rotary? Start out with a 1.5 multiplier, no limit on the number of rotors. Same general idea for 2 strokes.
Try something new!
- Make it 400cc four stroke and your on to something. I actually have thought about this earlier in the season and the only thing I don’t like about it is that the factories will have more of an advantage than with 250cc two stroke.
- That would be a great idea. They could use 400cc or maybe 500cc 4-strokes.
- A 400cc 4-stroke would probably be a better displacement to replace 250cc 2-strokes. A 600cc engine would presumably create “too much” power.
- I think the 250 2 stroke should be fazed it to allow manufacturers to experiment on a new bike segment. The most obvious to me would be the small displacement twins that are showing up in Supermoto. A full on motoGP 4 stroke with 350 – 450 cc displacement would jumpstart a new breed of super light world street bikes. I think only the US really has a “no replacement for displacement” mentality when it comes to a daily ride. I know I would jump at the chance to buy a totally flickable urban sport bike based on Aprilia’s new twins or something similar.
Great morning read – keep it up,
- Option 1. Spark Ignition, 4-stroke, 400cc, up to 6-cyl, direct injected, turbocharged, making 120HP, on some type of non-petroleum fuel.
Option 2. Diesel, 4-stroke, 600cc, up to 6-cyl, turbocharged, making 100HP on biodiesel.
- The glaring issue with replacing the 250cc support class is cost; whatever replaces the class should not approach the MotoGP cost per bike and should retain roughly the same power of the current class – about 80HP. A custom-build 600 motor would be too powerful to be comparable I think. A 400cc 4-stroke would be ‘special’ and be comparable in power to the current support class.
The most logical replacement would be a 400cc 4-stroke motor – which I think most of the Japanese factories have already in 4-cylinder form. It should rev high, have some of the power delivery characteristics of the MotoGP bikes but lighter and less of it.
- What should the MotoGP support class be ?That’s easy – four stroke, 550cc displacement limit- two cylinder maximum – 180 lb weight limit for singles and 210 weight limit for twins. Virtually everyone already has a 450cc motor to start with making it an easy entry into the class.
- 400cc would be a logical choice. 400cc sport bikes have been popular in much of the world, and it would be ½ of the GP size. Another thought, and my favorite, would be 650cc singles. Most manufacturers have this size engine including Husaberg, Husqvarna, KTM, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha (used in a lot of European brands bikes), Kawasaki, and Aprillia. Maybe this would kick off a return of small light bikes (SR500).
- Let’s not do away with the Junior class please. I’ve been wondering when, if ever, the 125 and 250 classes would go 4T. It’s inevitable I suppose but the economics must be very daunting to the manufacturers and I’m sure they’ve been resistant to the change. If they do go Otto Cycle, they should probably be held to the current single cylinder, twin cylinder formats. That way at least a doubling up of the single for the smallest class could provide the engine for the larger class. To that end I’d want to see a 300cc single replace the 125s and a 600cc twin limit for the 250’s successor. Those displacements could easily provide 60 and 120 or so horsepower right off and keep them more or less on par with the current classes as far as overall performance is concerned.
When the Premier class was 990cc I thought a simple 330/660/990 structure would at least sound good. The new 800cc MotoGP limit doesn’t lend itself so well to that kind of arbitrary structure. Engine sizes of 200/400/800 would be great for class cylinder multiplication but I’m not so sure a 200cc four-stoke single or 400cc twin would provide the same thrills we get in 125/250 today. Maybe I’m wrong though as the 800cc Ducati is obviously creating some impressive BMEP. Perhaps a single 200cc cylinder carved out of it could pump out 55hp and the 400 twin up to around 115hp but those would be some high strung and very expensive horses to maintain for about the same speeds we see now. So instead make it 300/600/800 which would allow the performance in the support classes to rise a bit as the engines are developed and we can get ready to see and hear some really good racing!
- I think the 250 2-stroke class can go away. I think a class of contrast would be fun…say a naked (i.e., non-faired) class based on production litre-class models. I’m referring to FJR1300-, FZ1-, B-King-, K1200R-type bikes. I believe this has been done overseas, but never caught on in the USA. Although I appreciate the difficulty of racing 250 GP bikes, I think unlimited unfaired bikes would be much more entertaining…and perhaps this could be grounds to persuade a tad more sponsorship and/or MotoGP support dollars from manufacturers.
Regards, and I love the site,
- 450cc 4-stroke class. The v-twin Aprilia off road engine design is a good start. Or a twin like the current Kawasaki 650cc in smaller displacement. No four cylinder engines to limit exotic designs and costs.
If you watch current MotoGP racing, it’s clearly apparent that the lightweight 250cc and 125cc racing is much more exciting. Higher corner speeds, more maneuverability and close racing make for more excitement. The 250cc bikes have very high top speeds on the long Euro straights also. The 125cc racing is just breathtaking as the riders run elbow to elbow in turns and change places several times per lap. We need more of that kind of lightweight racing here in the US. It’s about rider skills more and power less.
Also, the current SBK World Superbike races have been more thrilling than MotoGP 800cc racing. Bayliss, Haga, Toseland and Corser have been closer to each other on the track, the bikes are more evenly matched and the points lead for the championship is also very close. In the first few MotoGP races the Ducati of Casey Stoner was much faster than anyone else and just ran away. During the Italian GP the Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda bikes seemed to be catching up, but it still hasn’t been as exciting as watching Bayliss, Toseland and Haga bang elbows and trade the lead back and forth all race long.
The AMA Superbike class is just not competitive for anyone but Suzuki riders. Sorry Miguel and Jake. You’re out of your league on those lovely red Hondas. Matt Mladin is clearly the bad boy on the block in clear weather conditions. Experience counts when all else is equal. You can feel Ben Spies yield to the master when he’s coming on hard. Not much fun to watch. One problem in many for the AMA. Owners of the most unattractive logo in motorcycling.
As they say… just MHO. Ciao!
- My $.02 is that they ought to make it a 500cc 4 stroke class. Much as I love to see 2 strokes still racing, we probably aren’t going to see any more 2 stroke street bikes. The 600cc four strokes are already well represented in racing, and while that class might be easier for the manufacturers, I think interest would wane more than it already has in the lesser GP classes (at least in North America, can’t speak for Europe). The upside to this might be resurgence in manufacturer’s interest in producing small light bikes which have disappeared from the marketplace.
A 300 lb. 500cc bike putting out 75hp at the rear wheel would be a treat, but it might take some serious racing to develop a market for it.
Love the site,
