Yesterday, Indian released several CAD drawings showing the design features contained inside the new Scout 1130 cc 60 degree v-twin. Previously, the press knew simply that the fuel-injected engine was a DOHC design with four-valve heads, putting out a claimed 100 hp and 72 foot/pounds of torque at the crank. Compression is a conservative 10.7:1, while bore and stroke are 96 x 73.6mm. Cams on the Scout are mild enough to bring peak torque at 5,900RPM and peak horsepower at 8,100RPM. The Scout features closed loop fuel injection, and a 60 mm throttle body
These CAD drawings reveal additional design elements for the Scout, and may provide food for thought on whether the Scout engine is capable of a much higher state of tune.
Cam over buckets makes for cam removal for valve adjustment. Not a good thing.
That does suck. I’m tired of buying new motorcycles requiring that much work, yet alone valve clearance inspection being a PITA.
I’m not a cruiser type of person but I really do like the Scout. I was thinking if Indian had gone the route of CIB (cam-in-block, aka ‘pushrod’ engine to the misinformed) similar to General Motors’ LS-series V8 technology, but scaled down, that the Scout would be much more interesting to me. 100 hp (or more) with a liquid-cooled, high-tech CIB V-twin wouldn’t be a problem at all, and with the low overall engine height they could have made a frame spine that went over the gas tank like the old Scout. That would be really neat! The engine would be lighter as well. Before somebody has a knee-jerk reaction to this, understand that overhead camshafts are old technology too! There’s no new technology in the basic design of an internal combustion engine. The Scout’s engine really doesn’t rev THAT high to need overhead cams and in saying that, where the cam(s) are placed isn’t what determines high-technology. High-tech is in metallurgy, electronics, and fuel delivery, along with perfected combustion chamber design. Just my opinions!
I was also thinking an underslung shock like Buells had for awhile would be neat… to allow the swingarm to pivot where the top of the shocks mount and have an actual hard-tail look to the frame but still have suspension. Just some thoughts.
Victory applied for a patent for a new bike here in the (hated) European Union and the engine depicted in their application looks like it is this engine.
Have we discussed putting this engine in a rototiller yet? Or a motorboat? Since it has been suggested for use in just about anything and everything else, I thought about putting it in a rototiller. Just heavy enough to make the tines dig into the soil, nice power band, probably sips gasoline. It could work in a lawn thatcher as well. Too heavy for a leaf blower though. But imagine it powering the hydraulics in a zero-radius commercial lawn mower! Dixie Chopper, look out, Indian is coming for ya! I’m looking forward to a full line of Indian power equipment.
I’d much rather have a Burt Munro yard tractor than a John Deere.
This^
I’ve seen an 100hp outboard on a bike frame with direct drive, Big Trouble!
Please stop the nonsense… poor Norm G. breathing spikes with every post.
He even started answering back to himself…
joke aside, it’s not a race machine… and not you’ll (we) not get a scrambler, ducati, super ultra hiper duke rival.
and yes I can also reply to myself 😛
re: “poor Norm G. breathing spikes with every post.”
eeew, sounds painful.
Man! A 60 degree liquid-cooled, 4 valve Vtwin is so fresh!
It’s practically a Revolution!
Harley is so stuck in 1999.
Well, not a “desmo” at least.
As far as head (shim over bucket and narrow valve V) and piston it looks like very conventional modern engine. The aspect of bore vs. stroke and piston, skirt height plus the shape of compression space indicate future potential.
This is definite and radical departure from up to so far cruiser engine technology.
If this is the case then this engine could be used in future power-roadster akin Yamaha Bolt variations.
re: “The aspect of bore vs. stroke and piston, skirt height plus the shape of compression space indicate future potential.”
meanwhile the 60 degree V and that front lump hinting at balance gear indicate a “glass ceiling”. start building and revving this thing and the cases will have bigger cracks in it than your Liberty Bell.
IOW… beware what you wish for.
The Rotax built 60 degreee twin Aprilia used to champion revved pretty well, according to my memory…
and stretched / raked out dragsters
and street trackers
and scramblers
and standards
and SPORT-standards PLEASE!!!!
Use your imagination – This company can be so much more than a “Cruiser Company”
By the way – IMHO….The bolt is essentially a gussied up V Star motor with modest power increases(46 HP), better brakes and MUCH better styling. and thus not worthy of mention in this discussion
This motor could be PUMPED UP!!! 120+ HP
But do they want to be more than a cruiser company. I hope they do!
The bore and stroke ratio is a little more conservative than a a BMW 1200GS (101x73mm). This is probably not a superbike engine (the Panigale is 112×60.8mm), but it might be suitable for sport-turing use.
re: “probably not a superbike engine (the Panigale is 112×60.8mm)”
correct, not so much.
a bit o’ bike trivia, there’s other kit sharing this piston bore size. it’s Suzuki’s M109 if you can believe that.
Lets see that Scout compete on the Flat track circuit Indian vs. Harley, nothing like a little competition to get the ball rolling.
HD doesn’t have a comparable platform. It’s the XR750 giving up 250cc and is already occasionally losing to a Kawasaki with 100cc less (wait till those guys get their hands on the Yamaha’s clocked crank FZ-07 engine..) or the Sportster which is, well.. Not comparable.
The XR750 is still competitive and also dukes it out (and wins) against much larger capacity bikes. How the power gets to the dirt has a lot to do with how competitive the bike is (as do decades of racecraft knowledge built around the XR750). I agree that the 270° cranked little twin from Yamaha could make a splash. I am sure the Scout engine could qualify, though it looks a little heavy (in pictures anyway). I hope they go for it. It would be great to see riders on both of those iconic brands trying to push each other out into the marbles!
Agreed. While there are only a few engines competing in AMA dirt track, I believe they are also in the practice of field leveling with restrictor plates and such. That XR-750 is literally the engine that form of racing is built on, after all.
The heads look awefully modular. You could stack four in a row if you wanted.
In the. 1000-1100 cc range all other cruisers offer 60 or so horsepower , 100 ponies is a jump and the weight falls in line for this cruiser segment. The Scout holds true to its heritage, it’s like Indian never left the game.
Cant wait for direct injection. Will yield both higher specific outputs and greater mileage.
Direct injection is noisy, and with sound-level restrictions, that leaves less room for a nice exhaust sound from the manufacturer. D.I. also leads to intake valve sludge, requiring manual cleaning. Everything (increased fuel economy and power) has a price. Personally, I’m happy to avoid D.I. for now.
Said the shovel head rider.
Direct injection is only just now becoming common place in the automotive world. So that puts it what, 10 years out before we start seeing it in motorcycles unless aggressive fuel efficiency regulations start targeting motorcycles? BMW might make a go at it sooner.
They wouldn’t do it for fuel economy. Who wouldn’t want more power and greater range from their tank?
Fuel economy is why the auto world did it: the need to squeeze every mpg they can out to meet standards. Everyone would appreciate more power and range: I don’t think anyone is arguing that. A consumer’s willingness to pay big bucks for small dividends is. There are just cheaper ways to make more power right now while fuel economy isn’t of much concern in bikes.
Re: “while fuel economy isn’t of much concern in bikes.”
That may be changing. Many bikes get ~40mpg now and cars that do that well are becoming more and more common. Motorcycles are still mostly a toy/luxury item in the US but there will need to be a case for efficiency as fuel prices inevitably go up.
I don’t see that happening with D.I. anytime soon, for reasons already stated. Honda manages around 70mpg with the NC700x and it’s mild tune. Perhaps well see less emphasis on peak hp as a metric by which bikes’ values are measured.
I agree. Many of the improvements made in automobiles in the ’90s are only just beginning to find there way into motorcycles now. Things like variable pressure fuel pumps, more sophisticated ECUs, better injectors, etc. will yield better returns (in dollars, HP and MPG) than direct injection will. Whether the market demands that manufacturers put those tools to use to make more power, better fuel economy or a balance of both is a whole different issue.
re: “Cant wait for direct injection. Will yield both higher specific outputs and greater mileage.”
just so we’re clear, what it will yield is actually a HAT TRICK…
a “trifecta” of higher output, only marginally greater mileage, but a DEFINITE increase in MSRP.
as it stands, you don’t want to pay for the kit/bikes/things you derive pleasure from as it is…? and you want they should include the cost of a high pressure fuel system…? (Jackie Mason voice)
so long as you reconfigure your BRAIN to accept “free engineering” doesn’t exist any more than “free lunch”, then you won’t have to wait on heaven or DI.
How much $ was your last car/truck? To your question of paying more? Have you ever noticed that 4strokes motorcycles cost more than 2 stroke? And are heavier too? And cost more to maintain? And have marginally better mileage? By your logic 4 stroke would never sell. Go back to the old drawing board, Norm. Hate somewhere else.
I don’t think anyone is hating, Ed.
There is a reason you can buy a car that seats five people with four wheels, a roof, six airbags, an air-conditioner, power windows, a stereo and 140hp for about the same price as a 75hp F800GS with luggage.It is much cheaper to implement something like direct injection into automobiles: mass production at that scale makes the price increase rather insignificant, particularly compared to the relative price the consumer pays for the automobile.
Two strokes were pretty popular until they were illegal. Plus 4-strokes are very different animals and have their own virtues that make them attractive alternatives. Not sure I concur with your analogy. We’ll get direct injection one day. Just not any time soon.
re: “I don’t think anyone is hating, Ed.”
hmmmn, not sure ed’s reading comprehension is quite where it needs to be. if it wasn’t for my name being included…? one would almost think he accidentally responded to the wrong post…? with MD’s thread format not allowing editing and all, it happens.
re: “It is much cheaper to implement something like direct injection into automobiles: mass production at that scale makes the price increase rather insignificant, particularly compared to the relative price the consumer pays for the automobile.”
YAAAHHTZEEE…!!! see, Jeremy in El Paso gets it.
Hopefully not. That would screw up this beautiful concept of apparently optimized set-up. Power and torque relationship is indication of almost ideal situation.
Polaris has now introduced three new v-twin engines (Victory 106, Indian 111, and Scout 1130) that outmatch comparable HD engines. This gives HD a conundrum: How to respond without stepping too far away from its heritage and the HD base of loyal consumers who would be angered by any new engine if it lacked pushrods and didn’t vibrate at idle. HD is in a box of it’s own making.
HD is also the most successful brand in the American market. They have been challenged for decades by Japanese makes with products that are superior in technology and reliability and have consistently dominated in market share. While I think HD has to be worried about attracting new customers/markets (and are working torwards that with the Street models), only time will tell if the Japanese are having success with their efforts (Ninja 300, CBR250, new FZ models, etc.).
Without knowing if the younger demographics are growing in sales, it is just as appropriate to ask if the American cruiser market will accept the new Indian models?
The four Japanese brands could never satisfy the American Heritage aspect of HD, the Euros never really tried.
Indian however has the American Brand thing down, in a way no other start-up could.
It will take years even if they execute their plan perfectly to build up a dealer network, build hundreds of thousands of bikes – building a loyal following etc etc etc
Some day we could see Indian really take a bite out of HD’s market share – The Biggest Victory (see what I did there) for Polaris would be for Indian to capture the young demographic and broaden the mc industry. They would be setting the stage for a race to the top. Innovate or be relegated to a smaller slice of the pie.
No matter what, there will be brand loyalists who will never cross over from HD – look at the whole Ford, Chevy & Dodge truck thing
Losing 10%, say, of its market share will cause problems for HD. Harley has a manufacturing infrastructure that is sized to its current market size. Reducing market share means reducing plants, manufacturing, employee count, dealer count, etc.
Losing 10% of its market share also means losing some of its parts, accessories, and clothing business.
In time, if Indian executes, HD will lose more than that.
At some point they need to lose the “tude”.
At the dealerships and everywhere else
re: “Losing 10%, say, of its market share will cause problems for HD. Harley has a manufacturing infrastructure that is sized to its current market size.”
but that’s the thing, I don’t see HD losing 10%.
Q: why do I say this…?
A: i liken HD to Mercedes. (whoa Daimler, where are going with this Norm?)
on car side back in ’89 when Lexus came out, the luxury benchmarks they targeted was that set by the GERMANS.
but the things is all the “altacockers” who were driving Bavarian/Schwabish built goods then…? are STILL driving Bavarian/Schwabish built goods now.
people who consume Mercedes/BMW were never going to stop consuming those brands because of any “carrot” the Japanese dangled in front
of them, and so it goes for Harley Davidson. yes, it’s good to be the King.
re: “How to respond without stepping too far away from its heritage and the HD base of loyal consumers”
if not for “consumer’s disease”, how do you come to this idea that they HAVE to mount a response…?
what are we doing here…? riding motorcycles…? or dragging my tired arse back and forth between Lowes/Home Depot looking at patio furniture…?
They may find to be comfortable where they are: 1200cc/ 50HP/ 600lbs behemoth. Tradition at its best.
I seem to recall seeing mention from Polaris that Victory will be getting its own version of the Scout so that it, too, can expand into a lower price point. There was also talk of 11 different Scout prototypes. I would assume that means they’ll eventually have touring, sport-touring, and sport versions with different chassis and engine tuning.
Pistons, valves, cams, nuts and bolts? Yep, all there. Would love to see this engine in a more standard styled Scout variant. Perhaps a Scout ‘Tracker’ or ‘Adventure’ edition? They could throw in adjustable engine maps (performance / city / rain) while they’re at it. If I recall it’s already drive by wire – no?
I’d also like to see a standard version of this bike, with a larger tank, maybe 4.5 to 5 gallons would be nice.
I like the colors, it’s a nice change from using all grey parts.
LOL!
It is the Fisher-Price, ‘My First Cycle’ prototype, with all the bright colors attracting the younger crowd (MUCH younger crowd)…
😛
don’t laugh, this bike exists. Norm G (aka Shooter Mcgavin) just snapped it out to indy…
http://tinyurl.com/kce8rcd
http://tinyurl.com/n6t3x2b
first linky no worky. redo…
http://tinyurl.com/oxnnjf2
I wonder how much bore they left for the future. Enough for 1250?
As far over square as this engine is, it looks like it could be done with some additional stroke, too. Adding 10 mm to the stroke would yield a 1210 cc displacement. Then just 2 mm over on the bore would yield 1261 cc.
One thing that is noticeable right away is that this engine doesn’t have the steep downdraft intakes of a modern high performance motorcycle, nor does it have individual tuned intake runners. So this bike doesn’t appear to be designed to produce the same level of power as a sport bike.
But in every other way the engine seems to be the modern embodiment of a Duckworth-type engine. Valve angle appears to be nice and narrow, the piston crown is flat and the combustion chamber is tight and unobstructed. LIquid cooling means that the valves can be both big and close to each other (maybe even more so than they are now) and the compression ratio can likely be raised some from where it is now.
I’m willing to bet that 120 HP is easily within reach with this engine, and maybe even a bit more.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if this engine replaced the air-cooled one in Indian’s tourers one day. In a few years this liquid-cooled design will be widely accepted, and the current air-cooled Indian engine may no longer be able to meet emissions requirements.
Randy, sounds like you might have read Kevin Cameron’s excellent “Classic Motorcycle Race Engines”. Although, you didn’t mention “squish band”….
I agree. The only arguably ‘better’ way of arranging it would be Heron head.
There’s the old adage….there’s no such thing as a free lunch. An engine is essentially an air pump, the more air you can run through it in a given time the more power. The quickest route and often the easiest is to up displacement. Upping displacement and keeping the same relative state of tune will produce characteristics similar to stock but more power everywhere. The other avenue is to install more aggressive valve timing, increase compression and provide intake and exhaust plumbing to compliment those changes. This typically will increase peak power but at the expense of power band, which usually becomes narrower and pushed up higher in the rev range.
Some would welcome the extra ponies up high while others would miss some grunt down low. Indian obviously designed this engine to provide not only good power but great running down low where a lot of people spend most of their time. It’s a balance.
My words, to the letter.
Reminds me of my 2007 SV1000S that has power spread everywhere… a very wide powerband indeed. Awesome grunt from about 2K rpm all the way up to its 11k rpm redline. 118 hp at the wheel. Given that it’s a design from the late ’90s I count the Suzuki 996cc V-twin as one of the best ever so far.
It’s interesting that Indian came with liquid-cooling before even Victory. I’m encouraged by this that Victory will also expand and update their bikes with such technology in engines larger and smaller. Polaris, you are doing an excellent job in developing Indian to be modern yet contain enough heritage to be somewhat identified with Indians of the past.
I don’t see in the drawing how they can get so much power with those red caps over the throttle bodies. But I am not that type of engineer.
It would not be difficult to improve on Stone Axe Harley design. Let’s hope Indian offers something with decent performance that competes with say BMW or Ducati. Impossible? Not when you start with a clean sheet of paper.
Q: “Impossible?”
A: IMPOSSIBLE!
re: “Not when you start with a clean sheet of paper.”
looks good on paper.
decades of racing doesn’t just afford you brand awareness, it’s R&D, you learn things that not even SkyNet running the best FEA can figure.
PS: ask Erik B. how this works.
Just wait a minute whilst I eyeball out the bore/stroke, cam profiles and calculate the compression ratio. Then I’ll let you know.
Its nice to see Indian cycle investing in engineering, you don’t see much of that from Harley in the past years much.
“whether the Scout engine is capable of a much higher state of tune”
One would hope so with numbers like that and a configuration like that but at what price?. Regardless, what’s the point with a chassis like that?
“Much” higher state of tune?
What for?
isn’t it obvious from the drawings?
I crack myself up
“PERFORMANCE,TUNEABILITY,& FUN” come to mind right away