Honda has launched a brand new web site dedicated to the promotion of its unique dual clutch transmission for motorcycles (DCT). Honda already employs a DCT transmission in several production models, including the new Africa Twin (which Dirck will be testing at the U.S. press launch next month). Honda has been developing, and refining, DCT for some time, and MD has already tested the second generation Honda DCT, which we found impressive in the 2014 CTX700.
A Honda engineer was recently quoted as saying DCT is headed for use in sport bikes, and that production DCT is even more efficient, and faster, than the seamless transmission used by the factory Repsol Honda MotoGP bikes.
Among other models, you can expect a new Honda Gold Wing with DCT in production before too long.
Here is a YouTube video Honda introduced in conjunction with its new web site.
See more of MD’s great photography:
All you traditionalists, take heart! Honda makes a manual version of every bike that it offers with a DCT option. As for me, I’m enjoying the hell out of my DCT Africa Twin. The transmission allows it to punch above its weight when you’re riding aggressively on road as it will downshift far quicker than most riders would bother to do manually, keeping the engine on the boil. And lets you focus on your lines offroad and will never stall in tough offroad conditions — like the ultimate Rekluse.
When I feel like “being one with my bike” I leave it in manual mode. Does exactly what I want, when I want. And the shifts are incredibly seamless so even mid-corner gear changing never upsets the bike’s composure.
And when I’m commuting 30 miles through city traffic, I can let the bike do all the work in automode while I pay attention to the traffic flow. My left hand appreciates the break from constant clutching after 20 years of doing it every day.
It sure is nice to have a choice… Thanks to Honda.
This sounds like the reckluse clutch in the motocross world. Ten years ago it was written off as a novelty for trail riders. Its been improved over the years and allows the manual use of the clutch, it just eliminates the possiblity of stalling. Now its used by a bunch of top supercross and moto fast guys, not just old guys riding sngle track.
Hello All, I think you are misunderstanding the DCT. If you haven’t tried it then 1-you should not comment against it and 2-you don’t know if you wouldn’t like it. It seems like Joe B. is just trying to explain the benefits. People who are open minded should see it as an opportunity not a threat. I see people saying that maybe it will be good for the newcomer or to a person who can’t handle the complexity of the clutch or to women… those points might all be true but they are missing the big benefit. The dual Clutch makes riding much more enjoyable and safe for experienced riders. If you are an experienced rider like I am (30+ years) the first thing you realize when riding the DCT is the bike is much safer and you have more time to enjoy the ride. For example if you need to come to a quick stop to avoid a car turning in front (I mean really quick) then all you have to do is hit the brakes and the bike will not only stop but it will immediately down shift to 1st. Another example is coming to an intersection, instead of down shifting like crazy to get to first I can relax and keep my eyes on the traffic and make a better judgement about when to proceed thru the intersection. What experienced riders find out is that the DCT gives them the more time to enjoy the ride. Isn’t enjoying the ride what is all about ?
The issue of increased safety should not go un-noted. With more and more cars on the road and less attentive drivers with the texting and cell phones, motorcycle riding has become a lot more risky. We need to do what ever we can to reduce the risk. The DCT will be a big reduction in reducing the risk because instead of worrying (taking the time to shift) about what gear you are in for accelerating out of an accident or decelerating to avoid one you can be looking at the road and maneuvering to increase your safety. One last point, there are 3 types of people relative to acceptance of the DCT , 1-early adopters who see the big benefits, 2-skeptics who at some point are open to experiencing it and 3-Closed Minded people who think an improvement on the way things work (new technology) is an attack on everything they have learned over the last 40 years. Please keep in mind which group you are in. If you are in group 3 (Closed Minded) then I challenge you to try the DCT before you keep attacking people for recommending it. If you visit sites like the ctx700forum you will see comments from thousands of people formerly closed minded who now see the advantages of the DCT. Education and experience makes all the difference. Please keep open minded.
Dear HallsBrookRd…
[Comment deleted]
With love,
Scott
I would like the DCT if they bumped up the CCs and horsepower on the Goldwing.
Really, more cc’s on a 1800 motor already? It does not need more cc’s, it needs less cc’s. It is a block of flats already. Never ridden and also don’t want to, but I understand it can do with more horsepower.
UH, no. Pass. A bike is a tenuous enough thing without me having full control of it.
5 decades riding everything from dirt to choppers has taught me to pay attention and be in control.
Not for me now, but neither is a trike. However, sometime in the next fifteen years I may say yes to both.
I like using a manual hand clutch and foot shift. I don’t like shifting with buttons. Nuff said!
…and your bike has kick start only. Right!
Joe.
You have made quite a compelling argument for DCT. You have done your research, and you have thoroughly explained how the system works. You have put a lot of time and effort into experimenting with the system and sharing your findings here. And we appreciate it. You should get a job in the Honda marketing department, as you would be a great spokesperson for their technology.
That said…
I’m still not interested in owning a motorcycle equipped with DCT. Neither are quite a few other people here. Deal with it. You’ve been jumping to an awful lot of conclusions about what we want, what we *should* want, what we “don’t understand”, and what hypocrites you seem to think we are.
I can tell you, you’re way off base about most of it. If there’s one person who has been running around screaming like Chicken Little, it’s you. Comparing a motorcycle to a typewriter? Comparing a dual-clutch transmission to a kickstarter? Please. Give it a rest. Your point has been duly noted. Again and again.
You need to realize that not everyone thinks the way you do, or has the same desires and goals as you. Your condescending attitude toward everyone who dares to question the need for this DCT technology is bordering on offensive.
Agree!
advice taken.
Just for the record. Yes. My bike is kick start only.
I had no idea how shackled I was by the manual gearshift and clutch on my bike! The Horror!
I suppose DCT could bring some new riders in the fold who were a bit nervous or scared of shifting themselves, and did not want a scooter.
Nice video, but DCT is not for me. I do not ride a bike just for transportation. I enjoy the interaction with the road, the bike, and that includes the drivetrain…
Would it be too much to ask, what does it do?
DCT is Dual Clutch Transmission (I think). They have cars that have DCT, and it is two clutches in the transmission. One clutch drives the odd set of gears, and the other clutch drives the even gears. So when you are in first, the other clutch is ready to fire into second. When in second, the other clutch gets third shifted and ready.
I do not know how they know or predict if you want to upshift or downshift… That would require a different gear getting ready. If you are in 3rd, do you want to go up to 4th, or might you be running into a corner and want 2nd. I guess it depends if you are still on the gas, or off the gas and on the brakes. Seems like a lot of work by those computer controlled clutches!
I asked the same question. Its more than simply automatic transmission for someone who cant use a hand clutch. DCT, Dual Clutch Transmission, utilizes two clutches, so either up or downshift, is accomplished quickly/smoothly, and… the parameters of when, how, why it shifts is set by you. 3 basic modes. In Automatic, there is Drive and Sport to choose from. Both act similarly, like the automatic in your car, with sport having higher shift points, up or down. Manual, allows you to decide when you shift, by pressing a button, either up or down. You can also use upshift/downshift buttons in automatic, and after your quick double downshift pressing a button twice, and as you settle into steady speed after passing a car, it returns to its normal automatic mode. When ever you turn the key on, its in Neutral. A button puts it in gear, you choose between manual, sport, or drive. You gas it, drive off, it shifts for you, up or down. Stop at a light, similar to an automatic car, it simply waits in gear, till you gas it to go. You can put it in neutral if you like revving it at a stop light. Its impossible to list all the parameters, like heeled over in a turn, if you use the front brake, it downshifts. This isn’t like your buddy who chirps the tire when he downshifts, the algorithm blips the DBW throttle, so all you feel is steady throttle and a smooth transition to a lower gear, smoother than you can do with a hand clutch. Perfect, everytime, anytime. The shift points are directly related to how much throttle you use. WFO, it shifts at redline. Easy throttle it shifts like you would want it. Drive or Sport, has different, well lets say attitudes, Because when and why it shifts depends on how much throttle, you give it. In manual, it does what, when, you want. This one feature, seems to contradict so many that think with it, it can only be in automatic mode, it makes me want to grab them by their lapels and shake them. What the DCT does best is shift, smoothly, up or down. You know how when you ride double, and your passengers helmet hits the back of yours, when you shift sometimes? That jerkiness, isn’t there, in low throttle situations. Of course WFO everything is fierce, with or without DCT. Comparing it to a scooter, or it not being able to shift, is completely missing the point. Someone even said, he wanted a clutch and transmission on his bike. DCT is Dual Clutch Transmission. I’ve seldom seen so many comments from so many that haven’t a clue as to what they are talking about.
Dave, I couldn’t agree more with what you have said. In the 80’s Honda’s motto was “Follow the leader, he’s on a Honda”. Well, that’s gone because now the only thing Honda is leading is last place in new products! They do not seem to possess the innovative passion of the past while Polaris has. Now, I’m an ATV guy and this is where my point of view is coming from. I can’t believe the TRX450R is still not fuel injected!!! Honda just kinda plops along, making sales off of their legendary reliability. Reminds me of when Yamaha dropped the hammer on the off-road world when they unleashed the YZ400F. They caught everyone with their pants down! Honda struggled to catch up over the next 3 years, creating successful machines in the CRF line-up, yet and again reaching a plateau. It’s strange that Honda still uses drum brakes on most of their ATVs, while introducing all the techno-gizmos on their motorcycle line, whether needed or not. Honda does seem to be wandering around with a deficit of fresh ideas.
Hopefully they’ll sort out the issues that have been reported on some of the Africa Twins. It sounds really dangerous. If you haven’t seen it, see
http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/africa-twin/145130-crf-dct-owners-please-take-note.html
So is this a single incident with Europe’s best selling motorcycle? Or is this a common problem?
A single incident. The only other thing people are complaining about is the spokes are discolored or something.
I agree fully. Nice wiz bang technology though. I think it would be better suited to a 4 wheel vehicle.
I feel Honda as a company has lost touch in almost every way. Ever since Mr. Honda died the company seems to be with out vision. They still make high quality products, they just don’t lead anymore. I was a Honda guy in my younger years but haven’t seen any products that open my wallet in a long time. Even the Africa twin is a “me too” follower, and pretty late to market as well.
As a life long gear head, motorcyclist, and machinery lover, I’ve found that riding a motorcycle comes closest to making me one with the machine than any other activity I engage in. I find joy in how it reacts to my input, and find satisfaction in my ability to make the clutch, transmission and engine’s powerband work in harmony. Taking that function away from me will detract from the fun I get from that involvement. For me, the DCT isn’t about whether or not it’s a better way to shift a bike. Objectively, a computer can probably do it more efficiently than I can, but I don’t think that’s a function of riding I’d want taken away from me, especially after 52 years of riding. Others may never miss it. I would, but then that’s just my perspective.
Well said!
For what it’s worth, classic sporty cars go for much more money with a manual.
One of my friends tried to GIVE his son a car with a manual trans and the kid refused it because texting you know. Honda is just responding to a new generation that can’t get far enough inside their electronics. How exciting. Not.
Give me as few things that can go wrong on a motorcycle as possible. I used to prefer carbs, because they’re easily repaired when not breathing properly. I’ve grown to appreciate fuel injection, but don’t need electronically adjustable suspension, 7 levels of traction control or DCT to complicate my bike. I can see why some might, not me.
With you.
I have a car with a manual transmission (E30 convert).
There are some pretty strong opinions here. For the older guys. You’ll be dead before they take away your manual transmission bike. Quite a few front line high buck sports cars don’t have dual clutch transmissions…yet. They are expensive to produce. It may show up in more Hondas. But that doesn’t mean that it is going to show up in everything. Certainly not until I’m dead and don’t care.
I have different auto clutches in my two YZ295 two stokes and I haven’t taken either of them back out. I have done quite a bit of tuning on them though. I have actually had three different auto clutches. I sold one with a bike.
I don’t use auto clutches on my street bikes.
I run a Rekluse in my KTM. I have to admit it is awfully nice to have in truly nasty terrain. The same can be said for e-start on a 250 two stroke.
I can see where an auto clutch would be great on a street bike for a new rider. Especially when launching from a busy intersection……on a hill…..
I can see that. For me on the street. I like the absolute launch control the satisfaction of a job well done in doing nice launch. Off road, with wheel spin and all, sort of waters that down. I’d rather focus on dancing with the trees off road.
Everyone’s results vary. Is that a bad thing?
One needs to point out, the Recluse automatic clutch, is not anything like a DCT. One interesting feature of the DCT, is when entering a turn at speed and banked over, and with the proper setting selected and conditions for it apparant, touching the front brake can sometimes activate a downshift, smooth as silk, with the DBW blipping the throttle, keeping the machine firmly in your pre-determined turn, with the only perception being the RPM’s changing slightly higher. Does the Rekluse have that algorithm?
The Recluse has more in common (with respect to the result) to the centrifugal clutches we used to have on go-carts than it does the DCT. But it can still demonstrate how freedom from the clutch can be useful (or dastardly depending on your personal take.)
Thanks for pointing that out. So many comments here, how no one needs or wants the DCT. Its more than a automatic clutch, but that is all they see. With so many running away screaming and waving their hands in the air, “the sky is falling, the sky is falling, automatic transmissions are coming”, “Oh, but I like fuel injection”, “Oh, I still want my rev limiter”, “oh, I still want all those other things, like electric starter”, “don’t force technology on me”, “I like my bike simple”. “But I like all that other stuff we never asked for, like hydraulic damping, disc brakes, electronic ignition, just don’t force some new fangled automatic transmission on me, I’m a man, I drive a stick”. I havn’t heard so much fear, since “My scooter wont run”, in the eighties. 🙂
A question for the naysayers:
Do you have a manual transmission on your car? Why not?
3.9% of cars sold in the U.S. Have a manual transmission.
My 4 previous cars ( 2 Accords, 2 Civics) all had manuals which had to be special ordered. My current truck (Ridgeline) is an automatic.
They say in order for a sport to remain viable, it has to inspire the next generation. How do you inspire a generation that grew up with automatics? Convince them the transmissions of their grandfathers was superior?
I taught my son to drive standards and he rides a Ducati Monster and a Yamaha FZ-1, although his car is an automatic.
I wonder what he’s going to teach my grandson to drive? I’m pretty sure the Yamaha mini bike sitting their waiting for him to get big enough is an automatic.
I do have a question about the story above. iT says this trans is quicker and more efficient than the seamless trans used in MotoGP. If that’s true why aren’t Marquez and Pedrosa using it? Just wondering
Just a guess but it may be related to weight and power handling.
Rules specify that only one clutch can be used.
The rules don’t allow full automatics in MotoGP, yet.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Honda really starts applying some pressure to have those rules amended in the next few years.
re: “The rules don’t allow full automatics in MotoGP, yet.”
close, the rules ban Dual Clutches. these seamless boxes are otherwise fully automated on the “business side” of the engine cover. but this rule was made before anyone know the clever Kiwi’s had already patented how to achieve the net effect without placing a second clutch on the output shaft.
re: “I wouldn’t be surprised if Honda really starts applying some pressure to have those rules amended in the next few years”
there’s no need. the rules have already been thwarted and up-ended 7 ways to Sunday.
Dang, I should have known that..doh!
All of my cars are automatic (the last manual-shift auto I bought was in 1999), but that is only because a manual wasn’t even an option in the cars that have suited our lifestyle since. I would have preferred a manual in most of the vehicles I’ve owned.
That said, I am not one of the naysayers. I am very interested to try out one of these DCT bikes. I’d say it is most likely that I will still prefer manuals – I still haven’t met an automatic (in cars and trucks) that does what I want it to do when I want it to do it – but I am definitely open to the technology.
You’re darn right my car is a manual. I’ve never owned an automatic and I won’t ever if I can help it. They may be hard to find, but every time I shift my Mazda’s six speed box, I’m grateful I put in the extra effort. A manual for me is part of the involvement in driving and riding. I enjoy driving and riding. Remove my ability to shift, and I enjoy it a little less. Keep removing those little joys and it starts to become a chore instead of an enjoyable activity.
You still have the ability to shift. My GTI has the DSG 6 speed dual clutch and I can shift it when in manual mode with either the paddles on the wheel or with the lever or in any mode (auto, auto sport, or manual) with the paddles. It took a bit of getting used to but I really like it now and I have the option of automatic when I’m holding my girl’s hand, sipping on coffee, stuck in stop and go traffic, or if I hurt a foot.
Even though my primary transportation is any one of my motorcycles, I currently own three cars, two trucks, and a camper van. Each one with a manual transmission. When we went shopping to replace my wife’s car (Saab 9-3, manual) we looked at some Priuses and a couple other random cars. It wasn’t until we test drove the Abarth, the Cooper, and drove home with the GTI that my wife told me how much more enjoyable and engaging she found driving the manuals. We’re in our mid forties now and neither one of us has ever owned an automatic – unless you count fire arms…
Nonsense! Californians don’t own firearms!
Well they’re closing down the firing range near my house. They said it’s because of lead pollution – which has never been found. They never worry about the tons of lost fishing weights in the lake. Close down the fishing! Without the income from the range, who’s gonna pay for the cleanup?
At least they won’t be closing down all the nice windy motorcycle roads on the way to the range.
“At least they won’t be closing down all the nice windy motorcycle roads on the way to the range.”
Give them time my friend. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to do something about all of that fun pollution taking place there.
Personal car has a manual, and I love every minute of it, even stuck in traffic.
Company car is a minivan, with Automatic and the manual shift buttons. I don’t know why… It is a minivan, and when I try to shift the buttons, there is a delay of a second or so. OK, so I tried to get used to that, but the ECU is such a Nanny, it will override my manual shifts 75% of the time (shifting up or down without my input). I have not figured out why. The ECU should only step in if I am going to bog the engine too low in RPMs, or redline it… In manual mode, the computer is still looking at the same inputs and second guessing me. When hard on the gas, it just wants to run to redline (not always welcome, and sounds bad!), and I could not get it to shift any earlier by hitting the buttons. You should be able to run hard on the gas, but shift before your minivan is screaming 6,000 rpm…
I leave it in automatic since the manual mode is just not manual, so why bother. And it is not really my car, so I just wait for the miles to go up and get a new one.
No, I don’t. But my car is not something I drive in a sporting manner. And I got tired of driving a stick in stop and go traffic back and forth to work everyday. Plus, for a lot of vehicles, you don’t even have that choice, anyway.
I would still prefer a stick when driving on the open road, in the country, etc, but for my day to day commuting, automatic (CVT, actually) is where it’s at.
For a motorcycle, especially an off-road one, I would still prefer to have the control of a clutch and gearshift, although I’ll admit that the centrifugal clutches have their attractions, too. I guess the days of having to fan the clutch to get a 2-stroke into its powerband on a corner exit are long gone.
I’m surprised so many of you have manual trannys in your cars since like Mickey said, only 3.9% of all cars sold nowadays have manuals. You do realize you are in an overwhelming minority, right? Personally, I’ve only had one car with a clutch and have no desire whatsoever to have another. Neither does anyone I know.
I believe the motorcycle industry is doomed if they don’t start making automatics available on a lot more models. We are an aging market who are not being replaced as we retire from riding. I applaud Honda for leading the way to bringing new riders into the sport. In fact, if they put that great DCT engine from the Africa Twin into a cruiser, I’ll be the first in line to buy it.
This is Honda flexing its industry-topping financial and engineering muscle. Why? Because they can. If you don’t think BMW shall have to follow suit, I’d bet against that. For several years prior to Yamaha’s 2014 R1, BMW made the highest performing pavement screamer money could buy. BMW also make and have featured highly advanced scooters. These industries are in business to turn a profit, not maintain happiness among small sub groups of prior clients.
Frankly, Honda could not care less if they lost some sales from anyone posting here their displeasure with this technology. This is the future of motorcycling, whether anyone posting here likes it or not.
Just a few years ago ABS, traction control, and stability control were rarities among cages. Most cages now lacking such features are considered lacking and lower tier.
I worked in an office building with about 70 persons. I remember sitting next to my boss. We were alone. He mused that if a bomb blew up the whole building and everyone in it, they’d quickly re-open a new building somewhere, fill it up with people, and soon no one in that building would know or remember anything about the dead, except a little plaque somewhere in the corner.
Protesters of this technology are virtually irrelevant to Honda. “This too shall pass,” is their view.
Some comments by someone who already owns a VFR1200DCT. My fist motorcycle was a 1964 Honda C200, a pushrod 90cc pressed frame 4 speed, with manual clutch. I was a motorcycle mechanic for 30 years and not only rode, but owned a lot of bikes. And other than some Scooter, and the CB750A I have ridden, everything has been, hand clutch manual transmission. (I wont mention the hand shift mousetrap I once rode)I can understand, and agree with those that want a hand clutch manual transmission on a motorcycle. There needs to be more development on the DCT if its application is dirt riding. The DCT isn’t, and wont ever be, for everybody. When I first got mine, it took some time to “understand”, or “get to know it”, sense its capabilities, its strong and weak points. Then I forced myself, on my daily ride to work everyday, to keep it in one facet of its settings, and leave it there, to fully understand how it all works. Then after some time with it, and seemingly knowing what I liked and didn’t like, only then change the operation of that function, while riding. Then honestly return to the base function, and compare it, to what it is without my intervention. One week was sport mode, one week was Drive mode (both of those automatic), one week with manual mode. Keep in mind the up shift and downshift buttons, work in automatic mode. With time, I became keenly aware what function setting, seemed to fit the road I was on, freeway, city street traffic, tight twisty canyon (Bouquet), long sweeping canyons (Tujunga). Then with some familiarity with it, I progressed to my usual, “lets pin it, and see what its got” routine, all with the intention to not only get to know this new type of transmission, but the peculiar way it works with the bike. The original tester, who rode this bike and published his thoughts on it (google Honda 2012DCT motorcyclist magazine) didn’t like it. He thought that style of machine would be better with a manual hand clutch. I can see his reasoning, but disagree. I doubt he had the length of time it took me to finally come to grips with “how it works”, “where to put the settings”, “when to work the settings”, and “which setting works best with what type or style of road”. Comments like “put it in sport and leave it there” makes my eyes roll. NOw some may say this is all to confusing, but think about how many different ways you use your hand clutch manual transmission, and if you had to write it all down, how much it would be. If it isn’t obvious, it took me some time to become friends with DCT, and I’m not bashing those that think its unnecessary, or useless, or only for physically handicapped operators. What I do see is, and disagree with, many arguments against it, that are not based in reality. “Precious milliseconds saved”, is not what the DCT is all about. Luddites will have a ball condemning it. I’m just reaching out to those of you who might see something about it, you might find interesting, give it a test, you might like it. And, you might not. But hopefully, your argument against it, might at least be based in truth, and not fiction, I would understand that.
Thankyou.
You know, I have been so disappointed with motorcycles all my life because they don’t shift fast enough. This new transmission is a godsend. No longer will I have to feel like I’m losing precious milliseconds with each shift. I can’t wait.
I hear ya’! I had to install an electronic quickshifter on my street bike because I was losing so much time leaving stoplights. Not to mention the wear and tear on the top of my left boot… 😆
You know, I have been so disappointed with OEMs offering features in which I have no interest. I have long preferred a law be passed that prohibits all colors, features, and performance advances I have not personally requested and approved.
For instance, I have no personal need for more than 75hp or so. At no time, such as passing a double trailer commercial truck on the freeway, my bike fully loaded, would it be safer for me to increase acceleration beyond the bikes I currently caress in my stable.
/sarc off
I just don’t get Honda’s commitment to automatic transmissions. It seems to me to be the answer to a question nobody is asking. It may make some sense on entry level bikes on the theory it will bring more customers in but otherwise I simply don’t get why anyone would prefer or even want automatic trannys on a bike. Perhaps that’s just me as I have owned cars with manual transmissions most of the time as nothing else provides the same direct connectiond and that feeling of direct connection with the machine is a far more important aspect of driving motorcycles than it is with cars.
Uh-oh… Looks like you just earned yourself a thrashing from Joe! How dare you question the great and powerful Honda! ⚡
Rap,
Not sure what demographic age group you presently occupy, but this stuff probably fits those outside your age/group/attitude. Nothing wrong with that.
It could be that Honda is ahead of the demographic curve on some of their applications of this tech. Engineering ahead of marketing.
I think it’s timely-tech for aging cruisers, the wingdinger set, some UJM’s, Harleys.
My experience with this stuff is mostly with my Rancher E-shift quad, works great for that, only requires coordination on throttle. Do I want it on my track bike? No. But the new R1’s I’ve blasted around the track sure up/downshift nice with the tech they got. Never touched the clutch on the track, only at out and in.
This stuff would be great on a hog, but they already case-out on downhill left-handlers. Adding another clutch basket on the outside of what they got now would never work! Maybe H/D can come up with something so they don’t have to pay royalties to Honda.
Again, like duh? A DCT can be used in manual. Hello? knock-knock, anyone home. -just so Scott has more to comment on 🙂 but, that’s just me, I’ve owned a couple of computers now, and everyone has had a keyboard. I don’t like typewriters, the only one of those I ever used was one in high school typing class. Ever since then, I cant see why anyone would want one of those complicated things, ribbon and all. But, I can see maybe, some might still want to use one of those things, you get a connection that’s so important, its what makes life go round, you know. When I used typewriters, I never heard anyone say, I want a computer, this typing stuff is stupid. Its what typing is all about. Real typing, you know… shaking my head.
I imagine, if typing was your passion, you just might be using a Hermes 3000 or something.
re: “I just don’t get Honda’s commitment to automatic transmissions.”
translation: I get neither Fox Sports, BeIn Sports, nor do I subscribe to MotoGP online ’cause if I did…? I’d have intimate knowledge about some Honda mounted “whipper snapper” name “Merguez” who recently won 10 straight using an unholy contraption called a “seamless transmission”. these types of transmissions would be the “polar opposite” of fuel tanks (WITH SEAMS) that general consensus here on Motorcycle Daily says we old guys hate with a passion.
I just don’t get Honda’s commitment to automatic transmissions. It seems to me to be the answer to a question nobody is asking. It may make some sense on entry level bikes on the theory it will bring more customers in but otherwise I simply don’t get why anyone would prefer or even want automatic trannys on a bike. Perhaps that’s just me an I only own cars with manual transmissions as nothing else provides the same direct connectiond and that feeling of direct connection with the machine is a far more important aspect of driving motorcycles than it is with cars.
In the present world of clearly defined motorcycle categories (ADV, Sport, Retro, Cruiser, etc.),that are populated with seemingly cookie-cutter offerings, doesn’t make sense that a manufacturer emphasize the one piece of technology which sets them apart from the rest?
I’m unsure about the rationale of putting development cash into a technology that will become obsolete once electric bikes take hold.
As for my personal preference: I never liked DCT in cars – at least the VW, Ford, and Mitsubishi versions I’ve tried. Didn’t do full manual properly, nor relaxed automatic (jerky in city traffic).
I seriously doubt viable cross country electric bikes are going to be available in my life time, and the same guys who are poo pooing DCT trans will be first in line to poo poo electric bikes as well.
Given the only choice between an ice bike with DCT trans or an electric bike, I’m sure most would choose the ice bike simply because they could put life saving pipes on the ice bikes so that they sound like a ” real motorcycle ” should.
You might be a little off, Mickey. I’m not really poo-pooing DCT (though Joe B. seems convinced that I am), I just don’t see myself ever wanting it in my personal bike.
On the other hand, I think electric motorcycles are very enticing, especially (once the manufacturers figure it out) in the off-road segment. I think quiet, smoke-free motors with stump-pulling torque will be the perfect solution for the future of off-road riding. But there are many other positive attributes of electric bikes that will appeal to people for generations to come.
That may very well be true in your individual case Scott, but having read every review of electric motorcycles on MCDaily for the last 4 or 5 years, I can tell you that GENERALLY electric motorcycles are not thought well of around here, and that not many would give up their ice bikes for one, and the sound of the ice bike has always been a big reason why readers have given. tHey want a motorcycle that sounds like a motorcycle. Now maybe they could get a boom box mounted to their electric bike that makes real motorcycle noises, but we both know that unless forced, very few are going to make the switch from ice to electric. Don’t you agree?
For the record I have been riding continuously on the street since 1965 which makes me 66 years old and I have nothing against DCT, Electric, cvt scooters, automatics, 2 strokes, 4 srokes, singles, twins, triples, fours or sixes, air cooling, liquid cooling, tourers, nakeds, sport bikes, cruisers whatever. I don’t even care of others wear gear or not..their choice as far as I am concerned. I have more issues with loud pipes, and reckless behavior than with any kind of motor, transmission or body style.
re: “I’m unsure about the rationale of putting development cash into a technology that will become obsolete once electric bikes take hold.”
get a hold of yourself…!!! sound is part of the equation, electric bikes will never take hold.
example… (Jules Winnfield voice)
here is the sound of money ($$) being turned into NOISE… 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyPRViLyrQ
ps: we now sound better than Formula One.
“here is the sound of money ($$) being turned into NOISE… :)”
Can we please use “beautiful melody of testosterone and fuel” instead of noise…?
https://youtu.be/C_E3bSFi8lI?t=277
I rode the Victory Empulse electric motorcycle a few weeks ago.
It has a manual transmission, look it up.
I suspect that choice is a strategic choice to appease the currently invested motorcyclists. Zero motorcycles, who are selling many more units, do not have multi-speed transmissions
No, a transmission has the inherent benefit of being able to apply more power at lower speeds when wanted. That’s why it’s there. Just like any other motorcycle in the world with a transmission, the Empulse will accelerate harder in first than it will in fifth.
While that is certainly true true, I think Dave is correct in that Brammo originally went with the six-speed to make the bike as familiar as possible to what current motorcyclists are riding.
On a side note, I recently had the opportunity to tool around on a Zero for a couple of hours, and I confess I didn’t miss the transmission one bit despite the Zero being initially soft off the line.
No Zero dealers here or I’d certainly give one a spin. Very cool Jeremy!
Soft off the line? I thought that for electrics the “instant torque” was the attraction?
Well since it only has a fixed gear ratio, you don’t get the torque multiplier effect of a first gear, so it feels a little flaccid from a stop if you are really trying to hustle (though it is plenty fast enough for normal use.) Put your CB in second maybe even third gear and roll on from under 10 mph or so, and you’ll get the idea Feels very strong after you get past 30 mph.
Power = torque x rpm
Changing the gear ratio doesn’t change the power output, only the torque applied at the driving wheel (bigger/smaller leverage)
Electric motors have a fixed torque output from 0 to max rpm
I think you meant “torque” when you said “apply more power at lower speeds when wanted”
/nitpick off
Mickey, I think it’s just a matter of programming. I’m pretty sure the Zero has enough torque to loop the bike out from a dead stop if you whacked the throttle full open. So I believe they wrote that “soft” acceleration into the computer. Once you get going, the roll-on acceleration is quite impressive.
And if I understand correctly, you can re-tune the performance to your liking with a smart phone!
While true that the controller can’t go to maximum torque right away for rideabilty reasons, gearing was the reason it cubes on soft initially.
Wow tuning with a smart phone. I’m still amazed ( and have no idea how it is done) that people can tune with a lap top. The world is certainly a fascinating place.
Axis, no, I meant power. Torque is controlled by throttle position. With a lower gear you can still apply the same amount of torque but at a higher RPM, hence more power. That what makes something accelerate harder, more power. You apply the same amount of torque in each gear yet the lower gears provide more acceleration because; power = torque x rpm/5252.
You can’t increase power by lowering gearing – power remains constant at a set engine crank rpm, you’re just fiddling with rear wheel torque by varying the rear wheel rpm
Decrease the rear wheel rpm per crank rpm = increase rear wheel torque
(Gearboxes = just a way to play with lever pivot points, but in circles)
Azi, Todd is just saying that if you lower your gearing, then your engine speed (and therefore HP) is higher for a given road speed. The engine isn’t making more peak power, but it is making more power for a given road speed because the engine is higher in the rev range with the lower gearing.
What I expect is a leaning three wheel Honda Goldwing Dct with at about 34,000 dollars. What I want is in 500 or even 750cc. Something that wouldn’t be as weird as weird as an mp-3 and priced like a entry level motorcycle.
Great, now if they could just make it so it doesn’t add 50lbs to the bike
They can, it’d just cost $2-5k more.
The DCT on the Africa Twin adds 23 pounds.
511 lbs (ABS), 534 lbs (DCT/ABS).
don’t know if they ever published weights…? but I remember looking over the MKII DCT vs the MKI DCT when that came out a year or so ago and it was definitely more compact and used less components than the original, so Honda boffins already know what we want (at least in this regard) before we even ask for it. somebody may want to investigate, but the Afri-Twin may be debuting a MKIII…? dunno.
I can see where some would like this, me, not so much.
Having never owned an AT 4 wheeled vehicle(really), I really like to shift. It makes driving more interesting, fun even. Can’t see where it would make riding a motorbike better, unless you have some physical issues as some posters have said. Then this is a godsend.
Choice is great, bring it on for whomever wants.
Me, I’ll take a clutch and gearbox every time.
You are not seeing, the forest for the trees. The DCT has 2 clutches, and a transmission. It also has additions to allow them to be used, in automatic mode, with variations on when it shifts, and manual mode, where you control the shifts, by buttons on the left handlebar control. Saying that its only purpose is for those with physical issues, is not recognizing the fact, this is standard for many racing formats, in that it does it better/faster than you can. The complexities of the algorithms allows one to utilize shifts, as you have not done previously. Its pretty obvious from many of the comments here, that few actually know anything about it, or how it works. What I don’t understand, is now that it may be offered in more models, some now see it as a threat, and only want to condemn it. Instead of immediately being against it, knowing little of it, you should investigate more about it.
+1000 very well-said.
I’ve always been proud to be able to drive a stick and to shift a motorcycle transmission knowledgeably but if a computer can do it for us now, why not? Motorcycling will still be fun, maybe even more fun.
I have ridden both the DTC model,CTX700, and the standard model,CTX700. At this point, I still prefer the standard shifting transmissions, but that is just my choice. I believe most of the models come with either DTC or standard, so for those who don’t care for DTC, fine. At least there is an choice, …….for now.
I’d happily ride a Goldwing that has a DCT, electrically adjustable windshield, and improved switchgear. Carpal tunnel relief would be a very good thing for me.
I believe it was Henry Ford who said “if I gave them what they wanted I’d have made a faster horse”. Yeah, I hacked the qoute, but you get the idea. Just relax everyone. Keep rocking, and don’t let go of your knees. You’ll be fine.
If DCT or some variation succeeds in the marketplace the sport will be better off for it and so will we. You can always buy and or restore an old tech model if that is what you want. Show me something better and I will buy it.
Agree completely.
re: “You can always buy and or restore an old tech model if that is what you want.”
you can always buy a NEW tech model if you want. DCT will not proliferate in the niche business of motorcycling. the sales volume is simply not there (nor will it ever be there) like it is in car world. the existing straight cut, 2 shaft, sequential gearbox is the model of simplicity to produce (read, it’s dirt cheap). the “Walmart tainted” domestic motorcycle consumer has not gone anywhere. he or she’s buying decision will always be confused by notions of the “bigger and better deal” not their desire for the vehicle itself.
So Honda is offering something on motorcycles that was offered on cars 80 years ago. How inventive!
You’ve honestly never read this article, never read about the AT, don’t know what DCT stands for , and yet…..
I know what DCT is and how it functions. I’m just saying that they are a little late to the game when compared to autos. To sum it up: we now have an excellent automatic transmission on motorcycles as an option. Bikes work perfectly well with manual gearboxes and some even enjoy manipulating the shifter and clutch lever, even though it may seem archaic to some riders because now we can let a computer do the gear selection for us. This means that we can now use even less of our brain while operating a motorcycle because shifting is just too much work. To each his own.
PS- I once bought a 1967 Camaro with a 2-speed slush box automatic, removed it and installed a Muncie four-speed trans in its place. I liked the sound of the gear whine (straight-cut gears!) and all the work it took to shift gears. I’m probably the only fool that would remove a perfectly good Powerglide and replace it with old technology.
… and you don’t have to purchase the DCT either… choices, which have been around for 1000’s of years, even before ATs or manuals.
“A little late to the game”? Concerning motorcycles, automatics haven’t really been part of the game at all with a few exceptions. It would be like saying that Honda’s new 2020 jet powered cruiser is late to the game as aircraft have used them for years!
Likewise, the 2-speed slush box wouldn’t exactly be considered the epitome of automatic efficiency and development.
I consider Honda’s DCT like that of many of the more recent car DCT boxes. Some may welcome them, some won’t and in the Goldwing it’s possible it could just become the only box available. It all depends on acceptance and what Honda has up their collective sleeve. But just as in the auto world, there will always be purists who will always equate manual shifting and clutching with motorcycle riding.
DCT is pretty new in the auto world, crappy autos aren’t.
“Bikes work perfectly well with manual gearboxes…”
Actually, given that the economic collapse cut the US moto market in HALF and it hasn’t recovered with every other consumer industry, I’d say the regular shifting of a motorcycle (and safety perception, value proposition) is fatally broken.
Honda says DCT and most old-timers think “slushbox” but it’s on it’s way to being something much better. Imagine an auto shifter that does it better and faster than you ever could, adjusting shifting for the way you’re riding at the time and one brake lever that perfectly operates the brakes on both ends of the bike, at the same time. That’s not a path to “using less of your brain”, it’s a path to dedicating all of your attention to riding, instead of ” operating”.:
What other motorcycle manufacturer is doing this?
Q: What other motorcycle manufacturer is doing this?
A: exactly, nobody.
after the shake up in their management, Honda’s finally trying to create for themselves (and their dealers) a USP. it’s even MORE conspicuous on car side with the new design language and the intro of new and redesigned models (NSX, HRV, Civic, Pilot, Ridgeline, etc). the sleeping giant is at least “semi-awake”.
What about the Aprilia Mana ?
you make my point.
Algorithm chosen gear selection on Axial dual clutch, was not available 80 years ago.
With all due respect, have to call pure unadulterated BS on this claim, or ignorance, your choice.
Waiting for your link pointing readers to a dual clutch computer controlled manual/auto transmission circa 1936.
Not holding my breath.
The hydraulic, pressure sensing switching in an 80 year old transmission is, for all intents and purposes, a computer. Digitally controlled, it is not.
PROBLEM : DCT will destroy motorcycling. Honda and others think they will attract a wider audience to motorcycling but just like NASCAR they will eat themselves in their greed.
If you look at the auto industry once Automatics/DCT started to be accepted in sports cars like Ferarri and Porsche (equivalent to motorbikes) it only took about 10 years for manuals to disappear. UNLIKE sports cars motorcycles are not mostly bought by rich douches. Motorcyclists like to challenge themselves to learn the art of riding and to develop their skills. Without this challenge motorcycles will seem like a heavily flawed transport option. Think of a world where every bike is like a scooter !!!
SOLUTION : We should mock and put in Coventry anyone who buys one of these DCT monstrosities. Disown your children if they buy one and never help them if they are crashed by the side of the road. A line has to be drawn!
You have a point Tony and pretty strong one.
I cannot, for one thing stand that CTX nonsense. And have not seen one on the road either. I think they lost money with that strain of fungi and it is probably not just that one. How is it Stateside? Are they seen on roads?
Never saw a CTX on the road. Never want to.
I’ve seen several.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling, RUN!
Seen more CTXs than I’ve seen Motus’s, new Nortons or Indian Scouts.
I know 4 people who have bought new CTX 700’s. All of them were automatics.
Other than a couple of Groms, I don’t know anyone else who has bought a new Honda streetbike in the last few years.
I’ve owned about 25 bikes, and getting older with arthritis in hands I am thinking about getting an auto shift.. I own a 93 Sportster and a Yamaha Roadstar. Both have heavy clutches. I also own a 2010 Honda elite scooter, which gets taken out more than my bikes.
I’m in the same boat Geoffrey, I have arthritis in my thumbs plus have a fused left ankle. The comfort in riding a motorcycle for any great length of time is a hard pill to swallow. For me it’s not using the clutch and brake levers but just keeping my thumbs wrapped around the grips plus every shift takes concerted thought and execution. I can still do it but it does take some of the enjoyment away from the ride. A DCT eqipped bike could possibly bring the enjoyment back.
I agree this has the potential to snuff out manuals just like it happened in auto world. They’ll be a few bikes for the purists, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of bikes aren’t even offered with a manual in the not too distant future. If Harley Davidson ever starts pushing this seriously, that will put the demise of the manual into overdrive.
One of the reasons MTs are almost gone from caged vehicles is because ATs are perfected to the point that they suffer little if any performance deficit. ATs often have six forward gears now, and as many as nine. Twenty or more years ago MTs generally enjoyed a moderate to huge performance advantage.
They don’t put ATs in trains and commercial trucks because they suffer a performance disadvantage or cost more per mile vs. MTs.
I drove fire vehicles with both MT and AT, and the MT was worse than abysmal. Admittedly, the MT vehicle was made in the 50s, so there’s that too.
Trains use electric motors to drive the wheels, the diesel drives a generator. 70% of the new Volvo trucks are automatics.
“Trains use electric motors to drive the wheels..” Series hybrid, just as the Accord Hybrid functions at lower speeds. No gear changing transmission in the car at all!
Provologna’s point was that “[it’s not like] they don’t put ATs in trains and trucks because they suck” – they put them in there because for their purposes, they’re better all-around.
Obviously motorcycles are different vehicles, but there are some similarities. As he said, ATs provide as many or more speeds; in fact, on some of the higher-end autos, ATs provide better acceleration (much faster shifts) than MTs – and they typically get better mileage (mpg) than manuals do, at this point (unlike the slushboxes of yore).
Personally, I fully expect long-haul (tourers – goldwings and the like) and casual rides (most cruisers and scooters) to have near 100% ATs once they’re reasonably priced. I don’t think that the typical HOGs are going to care too much about purity – if they do, they want their shovelhead and that doesn’t have an AT regardless. The typical rider wants a bike to ride outside and enjoy without a cage, and as long as it goes BRAAPPPP the rest won’t matter.
Sportbikes? Lots of sport riders want what the racers have, so if the tech reaches the point where it’s better for racers to have ATs, then the sport bikers will get it to. They’ll demand it, because they’re so good that they need it.
At the end of the video, when the girl says, “where are you going”, that’s Eds hotel at the end of Ave J west of Lancaster Ca. A local movie shoot location, very popular.
I like clutching & shifting but I’m open to these new ideas. Choices are good.
I have already commented in response to a few others, and you make a good point. Push button shifting, and automatic functions in transmissions, is not going to viewed as an advantage by everyone. Some, many, still cling to the view that purity in motorcycling is ones last vestige of manliness. Viewing the DCT technology with an open mind, and not the “I don’t like it, I’ll never use it” mentality, seems to put us in the minority. The argument I have used previously to help others overcome their instant, “NO, I don’t want it”, philosophy, is pointing out all the other technology improvements that have slowly over time, taken root in motorcycle construction. The electric start button. Remember all the fuss people made about not having a kick starter? Fuel Injection, remember having to adjust the choke knob, to different levels, if you were in a hurry and didn’t wait till the engine was warm to drive off? Disc Brakes, periodically stopping to run the cable adjuster in to tighten up the brakes? Solid state ignition, when was the last time you replaced your points and condenser, oiled your spark advance? Much of what is accepted as a “Normal” motorcycle, was once something of the future. Some may not even remember when hydraulic suspension, even the introduction of a rear swing arm, or electric lights, or water cooling became the “normal”. Do people still complain about all these new features, like the art of the motorcycle is less because of them? Do you like them? Are there going to be those who condemn the new DCT without ever riding one, of course. But for all you other open minded people, I agree with Duc Dynasty, don’t resist something you haven’t tried yet, you might like it.
Well said, Joe. My first bike was a 56′ Harley KHK with spark advance on the left grip. 50+ bikes later, it’s been mostly uphill from there! I say, this is a great time to be a motorcyclist. With all of the choices in style, mixed with wonderful technology, bikes are better than ever. And getting better all the time!
We are the minority, me thinks. I worked as a motorcycle mechanic for 30 years, and have owned literally hundreds of all types of motorcycles. Remember when you said “Bike” People knew you were talking motorcycles? Today I have to say motorcycle and not bike, as bicycles have rebounded and some actually use them for transportation. Bike, to many, means bicycle. “So you are only pure as you want to be”. Before motorcycles, there was only bicycles. I still own a couple hundred bikes, and besides the scooters, they all have manual clutches, except for my VFR1200DCT.
you still own a couple hundred bikes as in motorcycles?
I trust the vast majority are not runners? Unless you are the Jay Leno type with unlimited funds and a full time mechanic on staff it would seem impossible to stay on top of that many motorcycles. I recently went down from 6 to 2 because keeping up with 6 runners was nearly impossible. Heck seems like there is always something to be done on the two!
laughs, well NO. I am not Jay Leno type. But with some a carb clean, and attention to whats rotted away, about half will run. I have lately downsized from 3 licensed insured to one. Poor VFR800, and CB1000R, will probably end up on craigslist this summer. About half I would say, are dreams. (when Jay Leno offered to buy my X6, I did turn him down) I’m retired now, and just recently bought a bicycle for exercise. So many bikes, so little time.
It seems the the trend nowadays is to insulate our selves from what is real and make it something virtual. Why? I really don’t understand this. I like controlling what ever it is with an actual link to it. Electronic this or that. We think we’re making our lives better and we are not. I like shifting, using the clutch, having a connection between my throttle and the carb or injection. If we continue with this, lets just forget the bike altogether, put a simulator in the house with a fan to blow in our face with a Scentsy in front of it with our favorite scent. We can ride virtually where ever we want in the world. No more bugs, rain, cold, stupid drivers, gas to buy, insurance, maintenance or bandits demanding cigarettes. And we can pause it when we want. But we will have to deal with the wife though.
I’m right there with you, Doc.
(Except, I like my wife.)
As you and others point out, its not for everyone. But, does your bike have an electric starter? or is it kick start only. Would you have chose the model, if it was available with kick start only, and no electric starter? And if it indeed does have electric start only, do you constantly feel sorry for insulating your self from what is real, sorry the start procedure is virtual? … since you like controlling this and that, knowing your life is better because you don’t use a button? eh…
Hmmmm. That sounds pretty nice actually. Select your bike, any bike you want. Select your route, Road of Bones please. Select temperature and road conditions.
Yes, I could get down with that.
I hear ya joe b. But in my defense I did have a ’77 CB750F that did have a kick starter. It was actually quite easy to start. Now starting my ’13 Road King with a kick starter would be another matter! I have owned cars that have a manual shift mode. Its not the same as a manual. After owning roughly 34 cars(many were Manual) and the same number of bikes, I think I would know the difference. Push button shifting is about as exciting as pushing buttons on my phone. And there are days I hate my phone. I like the connection to the machine. That’s part of the enjoyment for me. If it comes before I die and I’m still riding, and I can’t find a new bike with a manual transmission that I like, I suppose I’ll buy a used bike. Or nothing at all.
This thing… with all its proves, is not for me. As someone said here before: it takes fun out of motorcycling. Why do I ride? Because of all the “extra-effort”, that’s why. If I want comfort I sit into a car. I understand – Honda wants to sell and has to be inventive. That’s the business part of the deal and that’s fine. It puts technology before personal experience and it may work for some.
Every start of new riding season I feel stretched tendons on my left hand and that is good. I do not want to end up with one hand in state of de-generation aka car driver. What’s your left foot/arm for mate? :-))))
People in cars use their left hand all the time raise a middle finger at others!
Suggesting something like DCT here on this forum is like going to a sports car rally and suggesting the use of automatics. It may seem to sap some of the fun out of riding to some while others might welcome it. Just witness the number of people here that would welcome cruise control on any bike, some shudder at the thought. To each their own. I hope to ride a DCT equipped bike and only then can I say if it’s for me or not.
You’ve got it MG. It turns slowly into scooter forum :-))))
Rev-matching and skilled downshifting (car and bike) are something I enjoy and have enjoyed learning to master. And they obviously are more involved from a rider/driver perspective.
But they’re not something I’m as attached to as I used to be. In cars the DCT (or even full-auto) versions are now often faster (when there’s still a choice). In bikes it may well come down to how well they ride in the really slow stuff – think feathering the clutch in a parking lot or when splitting/filtering. With either, the other thing to watch for is electronic systems that don’t do what you call for (and in this case, my personal experience is limited to Subaru’s 4-speed auto, which is basically a dog in most respects and hopefully nowhere near the norm these days).
The latest car automatics are faster, but the fast ones (the dcts et al) are still clumsy as heck and easy to trip up. Paralell parking on a steep downhill is one surefire way to make them reveal their inner clutz.
I remember when the VW R32 was only available with an automatic. It sold miserably and wasn’t very fun to drive – same thing with the Subaru SVX. Years ago I took a new Vespa for a test ride. I used to have a P200e that got stolen and thought this could possibly replace it. I did not enjoy riding it without the ability to shift gears. It was dull. I couldn’t even get the front wheel off the ground which was so easy on the older Vespa. The thing was so much bigger and heavier so performance was about the same. The brakes were an improvement however.
I have never enjoyed a vehicle with an automatic so I can never see myself owning one. I’ll test one of the new Hondas if I get a chance and if it’s more enjoyable somehow I might consider it.
I’d rather HONDA had the balls to actually produce some of the cool concept bikes than wedge a Powerglide trans into a motorcycle. Go make a slow, tight U-turn with no clutch to feather and tell me how fun it was to pay the $2200 bill after you dumped your bike in the middle of the road.
Test rode an NC750X DCT in Bangkok. Loved it. I’ve also ridden the manual version of the NC700X. No the DCT doubt is better in traffic. I could definitely imagine how it’s easily superior off-road, on an Africa Twin. I’ve ridden for 36 years, crazy fast bikes. I’m sold on the concept.
It seems the DCT take rate for the bikes Honda offers it on, are much higher in virtually every market outside of North America. Likely because in those markets, bikes are often used for daily transportation. While in America, that is what we have Crew Cab Long Bed Diesel Duallies for. And those are almost all automatics as well….
I wouldn’t be surprised if the dct popularity in Europe is just a result of so many European motorcyclists are already accustomed to automatic motorcycles (scooters.) It is a proven concept to them. I don’t think that a motorcycle’s status as a recreational vehicle here in the US will delay adoption of the DCT here though. The popularity of three wheelers implies to me that people are looking for less intimidating “motorcycles.”
I wish Honda well but given the direction they seem to be headed with their product development, I can’t see myself buying any of their products for the foreseeable future. I don’t pick bikes based on ease of use, I pick them based on how engaging and stimulating they are.
My son and I recently test drove the Victory Empulse at the PHX bike show. Great bike! We were told to just drive the bike around in 3rd gear and don’t even touch the clutch lever when stopping during the demo; and it worked great. I had trouble restraining myself from down shifting for corners, for my son it was “yes finally, they should all be like this”
Automatic transmissions are a great way to get people into bike riding.
What is the %age of cars in the USA that have stick shift?
Yes, it is time…
Automated manuals are very good as long as the electronics keep working and wet clutches are used (ie don’t buy a fiesta). So as long as these bikes are made in 1st world countries where the people who supply the all important little bits of the system are also 1st world, they will work well.
When production is moved to 2nd and 3rd world countries for cost reductions, you may end up with a hobby bike that will spend more time dead on the road and then gracing the back corner of your garage as the warrantee is over.
Just sayin’
I like it. Younger riders will be all over these new DCT bikes. The technology enables a seamless transition from learning to ride through XBox and PlayStation video games, where you blip through the gears with a button, into real-world riding on a real Honda, where you blip through the gears with a button. Wouldn’t be surprised if Honda marketing were already working with computer gaming companies to roll out the new Grand Theft Africa Twin video game!
re: “A Honda engineer was recently quoted as saying DCT is headed for use in sport bikes”
translation: our main rival Yamaha will beat us to it like they’ve done with most everything else.
Seems like it would take some of the fun out of motorcycling. Meh.
well, not really. My 1200 with DCT, has drive and sport mode in automatic. In manual mode, with up and down shift buttons, its a touch away from when you want it to shift. Say you are approaching a decreasing radius turn, coming in hot – fast, with a manual clutch, its actually more difficult with a manual clutch to downshift and get it right. With the DCT, the computer blips the DBW, so one or two downshifts, seems to smoothly just raise the rpm going in, without any disruption of your line or the bike rocking back and forth, or leaning in or up, smooth as silk. touch, touch, nail it, your out of the turn. Wanna wheelie? Put it in manual, downshift, nail it. Want to drive in traffic while closing your helmet visor, as you drive away from a stop light, just leave it in drive, and while it upshifts, casually adjust your visor. Specifically, exactly what “FUN” is it, that you think you might loose, by not having a manual clutch? The constant attention to always have your left hand flicking the lever? (do you actually use your clutch on downshifts, or do you cheat, and just bang them, damaging the transmission? Its not all perfect, but it has a future, I think.
Sorry, nothing you described would make me want one. Visor adjustment? Really, a coupla thou in case you forget to lower the visor? I’ll revel in my Ludditeness. Oh, and I do use the clutch on downshifts. There are three vehicles that should never have automatics; Jeeps, motorcycles and sports cars. To suggest otherwise is blasphemy.
Man, I see what you’re saying, and you can argue all day long, but joe b has some valid points.
And I’ll make one more. You might find it more fun to row your own, but these days the automatic versions of sports cars are generally quicker/faster. The 911 Turbo can’t even be had with a stick anymore.
And in my price range, I’m actually irritated that Subaru insists on the dog CVT instead of a DCT (which guess what in the GTI is faster but VW).
(And as far as your “blasphemy” charge goes, well I’m also an atheist, so suck on that.)
What do F1 cars have for a tranny? Hark, do I hear the sound of a blasphric explosion? (I don’t believe in modern day witchcraft either.)
Who cares? If all you want to do is go as fast as possible, you’re just going to have to put up with being groped at TSA checkpoints every time you want your speed fix.
Automatics are just boring. Perhaps not on a bike used for either nothing but hard traffic slogging, or full time canyon running at illegal speeds. But for anything else, from non-gridlock commuting to touring, the interaction with the mechanicals is a large part of the charm of motorcycling and car driving. Were it not for that, I’d just take Uber.
For racing, automatics will obviously be faster. As will, in not too long, self driving bikes not having to contend with the weight of such heavyweight giants as Marquez.
And Honda is perfectly well aware that in the real big, and growing, bike markets in the world, bikes are used as tools. For transportation. Generally in traffic so heavy it makes Los Angeles gridlock seem like a race across an open Salt Lake. Building anachronisms for entertaining a few geezers like me, with levers to pull and pedals to fiddle with, while rolling though a monotonous Death Valley, likely isn’t very high on their list of priorities, compared to making smooth automatics that are Honda grade reliable as well as fuel efficient and cost effective. Of course, Japan is even more awash in retrograde geezers than the US. Which means, they’ll continue to offer bikes like the CB1100. So it ain’t all bad.
…but does your bike have an electric starter? or does it have only kick starter? Pure Luddites would not use a button to handle such a simple thing, and replace it with a money wasting item, such as an electric starter. Which is it? (and do you close your visor as you push the button) … oh’ blasphemy! You never mentioned what the “fun” is, that you revel in?
Joe…
I totally understand where you’re coming from – I think we all do – but my view is that “rider skill” is what makes motorcycling fun and challenging for me. I pride myself on my ability to brake, shift, accelerate, and corner using techniques I’ve learned and refined over many years. It’s an art, something that not everyone can – or probably should – learn.
All of those actions are being replaced by computers and sensors that eliminate the need for most of those skills. So what’s the point? Sure, it’s still fun to ride on a bike with all of those features, just like it’s fun to ride on a roller-coaster. You get all the physical sensations without having to really DO anything. But I prefer making a motorcycle do what I want it to do.
I don’t care about kickstarters. Kicking a bike over isn’t a “skill”. It can be a “challenge” – heh, heh – but I’m talking about the act of actually riding the thing.
And yes, my car has a stick shift, too.
So, I see. You still want the choice to have the features, YOU think are valuable, and what makes it enjoyable. Have you unplugged your rev limiter, and simply use the tack to judge when to not over rev the engine? Surely one “rider skill” of refinement you will want to add to your quiver. Of course not. I am not saying a DCT is for everyone. Just that many of the comments using a straw argument to condemn it, are misleading. I like how you discount the electric start button as not part of riding, and want to keep that item. How soon will it be before the DCT will be similar, eh?
I’m not condemning the DCT technology at all. But you can’t tell me that the only reason I personally don’t want it is that I haven’t tried it. My reason for not wanting it is perfectly valid.
If DCT is something people want, great. I’m glad they have that available to them. But I sure hope there will continue to be some “old school” motorcycles left for the rest of us. It’ll be a sad, sad day when the only bikes you can get have DCT, automatic braking, and all of the other “auto pilot” technology in the pipeline…
And yes, of course I use the tach to shift! Who uses the rev limiter as a shift point? Stunters?
The rev limiter is only there to protect the engine in case you miss a shift – and to remind you that you need to practice your shifting skills. If you care about such things.
Yes. So You are only as pure as you want to be.
People are only willing to accept the technology they deem acceptable.
“…So You are only as pure as you want to be.”
Ummm… I guess I am. Whatever that means.
..it means you decide what is acceptable, for what a motorcycle should be. You don’t want sensors that replace a skill you have, but you keep the rev limiter, when YOU could, if you wanted, not have it.
Moving the goal posts. We were speaking of transmissions, not starters. But, for your information I’m Reform Luddite, not Orthodox, so I’m allowed to use the button. Never said I reveled in “fun”. Reread, it’s fundamental.
In the interests of continuing & promoting our “Sport”, this technology could benefit a new wave of entry-level, beginner bikers. Imagine if compactness & weight of this DCT technology were in a Honda Grom.
I already know how and when to shift so I don’t need the bike to do it for me. Not at all interested. Heck, I don’t even like automatics in cars but, thankfully, I don’t have a need for a car either.
… and I bet you still use a typewriter, huh?
Yeah, I submit each response to these forums on paper and snail mail them to the MD offices. They then scan it in and post it for me… What does that have to do with motorcycle transmissions. Are you saying I should accept the automatic transmission just because it was developed more recently – like buying the latest iPhone just because everyone else makes you feel like a dork for having a one year old phone?
You know how and when to shift, but alas, this type of shifter shifts about 3x quicker than the quickest shifting full time professional racers.
Human beings are inferior to the machine for this specific purpose. It’s fine to prefer inferior performance, and it’s also preferred to state honestly what is sacrificed.
Nope. Straw man argument.
They are not marketing this technology because of its lightning-quick shifting capability. That doesn’t make one iota of difference to the average street rider. They’re exploiting the sheer convenience of the system, which the general public eats up. Less work? Less skill needed? Sign me up!
Racers are using technology like this because every millisecond they can save makes a difference. But there isn’t a racer out there who really embraces all the electronic “help”. It’s a necessary evil if you want to win.
Alas Provologna, with all due respect, methinks your analytical thought processes are a bit misguided at best. The science involved in the DCT discussion is indisputable. The problem is that we don’t always make decisions based on science. Interesting discussion but your (some might say) over-analysis is making my teeth hurt! Please lighten up my friend. My earlier comments about your “special” headphones were made with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. Obviously, not firmly enough. Just trying to add some levity. I perceived Scott’s “Hawking” voicebox remark as a humorous, off-the-cuff remark and nothing more. I take all your points and respect your points of view. But please realize that every comment doesn’t necessarily need an argumentative response.
Okay, Provologna, you got me too. Well-played!
I tend to agree with Honda’s position that automatic motorcycles are the future of motorcycling. I haven’t sampled one of these DCT bikes yet, but I can see a real advantage to it in a large adventure bike application like the Africa Twin.
I like shifting and using the clutch as a tool, so I am not so sure that I welcome the advent of auto clutches as they will probably become the only option in many styles of motorcycles in the not too distant future.
re: “I tend to agree with Honda’s position that automatic motorcycles are the future of motorcycling.”
well of course HONDA would think that, they are the only one’s producing the technology. I mean if I produced it…? I too would be running around screaming my head off about it to try and create a “self-fulfilling prophecy”. lol
but no, it will NOT be the future of motorcycling. contrary to popular misconception, the reason electronic gizmos have proliferated is because they have been achieved through ridiculously cheap to implement computer chips, circuit boards and software programming. lots of profit potential there for only marginal increases in price point.
in contrast, this is a “hard part” and will add CONSIDERABLY to the price of the vehicle. you needn’t look any further than the asking price of the base Ninja H2 to see this. that supercharger involves a whole ‘nother series of manufacturing steps on top of the traditional assembly path needed to turn out a motorbike. that my friend costs MONEY and somebody’s got to pay for it. that somebody is YOU. 🙂
The H2 costs so much more because it’s a very low volume motorcycle that is targeted at a “super-premium” customer. The engine tech is long paid for in their PWC products.
A little off subject but…Why is the USA still stuck with the 700cc version of the CTX/NC twins? I think we can handle the bump to 55 hp, and a little extra torque is always welcome. DCT’s work great on cars, most accelerate faster that a human with a manual tranny these days, so bring them on! Just keep the weight down and the HP up, and they will sell!
They had to dump all that 700cc overstock on someone.
Honda has never had a problem snubbing their US consumers.
re: “Just keep the weight down and the HP up”
you are destined for great disappointment, for this is not something Honda’s planning to do. they wouldn’t even “keep the HP up” in their crown jewel consumer 213V. that right there tells you everything you need to know.
Le-Mans cars still sounds like “drr-drr” with that kind of transmissions.
Is that what you think they sound like? Maybe Provologna can set you straight with his $450 headphones… LOL!
Scott, too bad Circuit City’s outta business. They had a sweet pair for $129.99 that probably would have prevented your “Hawking” faux pas.😉
If they make a lightweight midsize cruiser with DCT, my wife will be first in line.
She has no desire to use a clutch and is currently riding a 300cc Forza scooter.
Have her take a look at the CTX700. Not traditional cruisier styling but it has the riding position and the DCT.
Honda is also putting DCT in their UTV 1000 Pioneer. They’re rated to tow 2000 lbs, so I could put tracks on it and easily tow my ice house. It seems that the future is upon us.
I know I sound both ungrateful and a spoil-sport, but:
Honda, I’d settle for universally-available ABS on all your U.S. models. You know…like Europeans enjoy. DCT can come when you get your house in order.
Amen
I think it is silly that you can still buy a motorcycle without at least the option of ABS. However, I think Honda is great when it comes to offering ABS. I don’t know much about their cruiser line, but I think the two dual sports are the only street bikes they offer in the US without an ABS option. Oh, and the CB1000R for some inexplicable reason.
With the ability to manually shift up and down without a clutch It will be interesting to see how it performs compared to the current autoshifters on sport bikes. If it ends up reducing lap times on the track it will certainly be well received.
Manually shifting the Africa Twin involves using your thumb and index finger. I believe i read that in Europe the foot shifter is optional however will be standard in the US
Cup holders should be standard equipment . . . . . .
Well, since you don’t need your clutch hand anymore, why not wrap it around a nice cool beverage?!
Pleased to see the positive responses : – ) Really hoping a little version makes its way to the dual-sports. XL250 with DCT sounds good to me!
I’ve got a torn extensor tendon in my left arm and a day of clutching makes me really sore at the end of a ride and the following day.
I could see something like this in my future if they can make it smooth enough.
I had an original SMT transmission (single clutch) in my old BMW 3 series and it was terrible and jerky at low speed. It made you look like you just learned how to drive a manual and would get fooled easily.
I know the newer dual clutch models are better. A loaded up touring rig with this would be nice.
I have read many articles on the Africa Twin, its DCT is getting universal praise. It seems that Honda has finally gotten it right.
This, and also folks like me with decreasing strength and mobility in my hands and wrists due to arthritis. A couple hours of riding means a dose of NSAIDS and ice. As the riding public ages, we’ll see more adaptive features like DCTs. Meeting emissions standards will be a big factor too. If using a DCT means having better engine response and power that’s probably a trade-off we’d all prefer.
I love dual clutch in cars (DSG) but I’m still not sure I want it on a bike. I’d have to try it.
My thought too, to be fair I will need to ride a bike so equipped before passing judgement. I have an open mind so I hope it opens up a new experience.
I drove the DCT CTX700 and I liked it. There was plenty of traffic that day so not having to shift was nice. As a commuter platform, it’s really great. With the paddle shifting you can also shift yourself at the normal rpms you are used to.
Just rode my first DCT bike the other day, one of the CTX 700s. I must say I’m just not sure about it yet. Not that I am against automatics, I had a YPV 400 Majesty scooter in my stable for a couple of years and I was fine with the auto trans on that. Could even say I liked it. I just didn’t care for the feel of the DCT transmission shifting ( you could feel a ” bump” everytime it shifted, and lord knows I’m a pretty easy rider, but the shift points were too low even for me. It did feel better in Sport mode than in Drive mode. It wasn’t as smooth shifting as the auto in my truck. Not opposed to the idea of an auto trans bike, just want it to be seamless when it happens.
So this thing actually does change “gears”. Interesting. I was thinking it was more like the CVT trannies in auto world. I knew about the paddle shifters but some of the CVT cars have those too, to simulate gear shifting. Thanks for the review Mickey.
I have a ’12 VFR1200DCT, and its not your grampa’s bike. In Automatic mode it has sport and drive, sport has higher shift points. Both will downshift if you nail it and its in too tall a gear. It also has manual. On the left handlebar switch it has up and down shift buttons (well within fingertip reach)and you can tell it when to up or downshift. Also, in automatic mode, you can use them, to either up or downshift. It shifts to first anytime you come to a stop. Sitting at a stop light, in gear, you have to push Neutral button, if you want to rev the engine, like a car, if its in gear and you pin it, it will go. It will not go into neutral if you are rolling, and wont go into gear if you roll away from stop in neutral. It needs to be stopped to go into gear. Nuetral, sport or drive automatic, up and down shift, are all buttons. There is no shift lever at your foot. At slow speeds, it seems to clunk ( best word I can think of ) when it shifts. At most any RPM higher than slow speed, its smooth, in upshift or down. In a turn, a downshift, is smooth as butter and the DBW blips the throttle and catches it at a speed you would want for a shift without any interruption in your driving line. I think it is really nice, but many still want to comment, “Oh, I still want a clutch”. When was the last time you drove a truck with a clutch? The one time the DCT is funny, is when you are leaving a stop, and need to make a U-Turn. Then, you cant just lean the bike over hard and slipping the clutch rev the engine to keep it in a real tight turn. The best I have found, is to use manual, put it in first, and drag the back brake to modulate the fall of the bike, with steady heavy throttle. Or, much like riding double, size up where and when you plan to stop, and make the U-Turn before you go in, having a clean path to leave. I like it. Its different. In a drag race, in sport, it’s just pin it and go. OH, yes it will wheelie. All you have to do is have it in manual, and nail it at slow speeds, and the front will pop up real quick. My natural reaction is to then, pull in the clutch, But there is no clutch. Now I know why it has traction control, as by the time you roll off the throttle it would just flip over, but with TC it stutters and the front comes down, before you can say, sh*t this thing wheelies. I would think this would be a good thing on a Gold Wing, or big bike. I actually think its easier to drive a manual clutch, if you want optimum output, it has its own peculiar features, for a novice to learn. Its high tech, some will never want it, but they said that about electric starters, and fuel injection.
Joe you described the shift as a clunk, I described it as a bump. Doesn’t matter what it’s called it’s felt when it happens which I think Kagato was curious about.
The DCT probably will be the way of the future, it’s just something new for us. After riding a clutch bike for 50 years, I found it a bit strange feeling, although I am not opposed to it and may own one someday if I live long enough. Here’s a report I did for the CB forum about my rest ride
Rode down to my local dealer today to pick up a gallon of GN4 for an upcoming oil change and the owner showed me a CTX? 700 With DCT (dual clutch transmission) that he took in on trade. Care to ride it? He says. Sure! say I. Never ridden a bike with DCT but have been wanting to. Last auto bike I rode that wasn’t a scooter was in 1976 (CB750A).
The bike had a button on the right switch assy you pressed for Neutral, Drive mode 1st gear, or Sport mode 1st gear. And a finger switch for upshifting and a thumb switch for down shifting on the left bar switch assy (but you don’t even have to mess with that if you don’t want to). I decided to try Drive mode 1st, and let the bike do the shifting. Start bike, click right hand button from N to D1 (indicated on the dash) and give it the gas and it takes off. It quickly shifts itself into 2nd and you feel a slight bump as it shifts. Then you feel the bump again and you are in 3rd and so forth up to 6th. As I slowed down to turn around I could feel the bumps reversing as it downshifted back to 1st. Not alot of get up and go in Drive mode. Let me try Sport Mode, so I toggled the right button to S1 and took off. Much peppier in sport mode but it still wanted to shift early and did, bump, bump, bump bump up to 6th, and bump bump bump down to first as I slowed down to turn around again. Time to try the left paddles. Take off and bump, bump I’m all of a sudden up to third and haven’t touched anything, so I thumb the left – paddle and the bike down shifts to second, then I accelerate and hit the finger trigger and shift third, fourth, fifth and sixth. Then start slowing and hit the thumb to downshift to 5,4,3, and let the bike downshift itself into 2 and 1 as I slow down to turn around.
Joe, I’m sure I could get used to it given a few hundred miles instead of the 10 I did the test ride on. There are times though when you disengage the clutch for things other than shifting, like you said, when pulling U turns or to “hesitate” forward movement in certain situations without using the brakes.
Honda sure has faith in it, but none of the other manufacturers seem to be interested at this time. Next few years are going to be interesting.
Thanks! You just proved a point. Making slow, tight turns requires a special technique because there is no clutch to feather. This will result in a lot of dropped bikes for newer riders and probably higher insurance premiums when they do dump it.
I think that might be a stretch … First off with regards to new riders, if that’s what you learn on you won’t know any different. Secondly I had no issues pulling U turns on my test drive and I did 3 of them, and frankly didn’t notice that it was any different than on my clutch bikes and they were slow 1st gear U turns. Then again I’ve ridden CVT scooters and they have no issues pulling U turns either even with no clutch.
Most riders I know don’t really get the feather clutch technique anyway. They just make wider uturns. Rear brake and throttle manipulation should net the same result as feathering the clutch I would think.
I would like to see the DCT on the CTX1300.
Like the DCT and can really see an Africa Twin DCT in my garage within a year. Will wait for the production run to get some legs and durability feedback before I commit.
Video is kinda lame.
The narrator sounds like Stephen Hawking’s voice box. Creepy.
I compared the Honda video to this Steven Hawking lecture: https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_hawking_asks_big_questions_about_the_universe?language=en#t-127949
Comparing the two voices on a $450 pair of high-value high performance headphones, the only similarity was male voices, Hawking’s voice box being higher pitch w/distinct noise modulation.
Comparing the two voices on above-average speakers in this laptop (center speaker + the normal L/R), same result, the differences slightly diminished.
Just my view.
I usually strongly dislike such marketing videos, being repulsed by the obvious manipulation. Strangely, I very much liked this one, except for the obvious (and strange) brief scene where the bike rider is obviously tail gating the cage. The closing words were a witty look toward Honda’s version of motorcycling future.
I drove a BMW cage with their SMG version of Honda’s DCT. It’s very possibly the coolest innovation in domestic vehicles in my lifetime, age 61.
There ya go, Scott. Guess you need to gitcha’ some o’ them fancy $450 headphones! All in good fun boys.
I paid $250 several years ago for a used pair of the phones which were $450 new. I saw a used pair more recently for $125. Mine are used daily and show little to no wear.
A reasonable analogy for making a conclusion of two voices played via inferior loudspeakers: making a conclusion of a motorcycle’s handling with inferior tires, or with tire pressure 1/3rd lower than proper spec, or completely wrong suspension seting.
The subject may have perceived less similarity in the two voices with better playback quality (even less back ground noise maybe). A little training would have helped too, me thinks.
Okay, Provo, you totally got me! I actually thought you were being serious, but after I read this one I literally LOL’d! Well done, sir, well done!
Clearly auditioning for a role in the next episode of The Big Bang Theory
re: “The narrator sounds like Stephen Hawking’s voice box. Creepy.”
sure might be a little HAL9000-ish but it’s a very good promo. I believe that’s the one major mis-step Honda’s made since introducing this technology to their bikes. they’ve done a lousy job MARKETING the bloody tech to the consumer, particularly American consumers.
moto-IQ’s are “off the scale high” high in Europe so they know what DSG/dual clutch technology is from car world. iirc Audi was the first to introduce it…? but here in the states, the average Joe posing at starbucks on his Ducati hasn’t a clue what’s going on.
not that that’s a bad thing since he DID “come off the dime” for kit, but when you’re a GIANT MONOLITH of a company trying to create a “paradigm shift” (both puns intended) in thinking, it helps to at least acknowledge that the consumer archetype is distinctly different on opposite sides of the pond.
What are you doing… Norm?
okay, NOW i’m creeped out…!!! LOL