Several years after MD rode a prototype, the Harley-Davidson LiveWire electric motorcycle is finally coming to U.S. dealerships this Fall with an MSRP of $29,799. Harley claims a 0-60 MPH time of under 3.5 seconds and 110 miles of battery range riding “urban roads”.
Here are all the details from Harley, along with information on two electric concepts (pictured below).
LAS VEGAS (January 7, 2019) – Harley-Davidson, the company that has defined the motorcycle industry for the past 116 years, today revealed two new concept electric two-wheelers and announced pricing and pre-order availability for LiveWire™, its first electric production motorcycle, at the biggest show in consumer electronics in Las Vegas. The 2020 LiveWire™ motorcycle is now available for US dealer pre-order at h-d.com/LiveWire with deliveries expected this fall and select global markets announced at a later date.
The LiveWire represents the future of Harley-Davidson, bringing high-performance electric propulsion, evocative design, and cellular connectivity to today’s rider. The first of a new electric portfolio of motorcycles that provides an all new two-wheel experience, LiveWire delivers thrilling acceleration, agile handling, premium materials and finishes, and a full suite of electronic rider aids and interfaces for a completely connected experience.
The performance of the LiveWire motorcycle will deliver an exhilarating ride for seasoned motorcyclists, while its clutch-free design also makes the experience for new riders easier than ever. Harley-Davidson also debuted two additional, electrified future concepts that further explore the potential of urban mobility. In keeping with LiveWire, both concepts bring Harley-Davidson’s expertise in expressive two-wheeled experiences and push boundaries in design and technology. These motorcycles are a significant part of the More Roads to Harley-Davidson plan to accelerate building the next generation of riders through new products in additional motorcycle segments, broader access and a commitment to strengthen dealers globally.
“We’re at a historic juncture in the evolution of mobility, and Harley-Davidson is at the forefront,” said Matt Levatich, Harley-Davidson’s President and CEO. “Innovation that moves the body and soul has always been at the heart of our brand, and this next chapter in our history is about creating products and opportunities for existing and aspiring riders of all ages and walks of life.”
“Our vision for the future is all encompassing,” said Levatich. “For all ages, from urban professional to exurban retiree, and from commute-minded to thrill-seeking, we are creating the products and opportunities for existing and aspiring riders to feel the transformative power of the two-wheeled riding experience. These two concepts are further statements towards that our commitment to lead in the electric mobility space that begins this fall with the production 2020 LiveWire.”
LiveWire Pre-Order Details
For more information on the new Harley-Davidson LiveWire motorcycle (US MSRP $29,799), as well as updates on future additional bikes, visit Harley-Davidson.com/Electric.
An All-New Riding Experience with Iconic Harley-Davidson Power
Accessible to new motorcyclists and a thrill for accomplished riders, the LiveWire motorcycle is the perfect combination of power, performance and technology. Features include:
- Amazing acceleration: from 0 to 60 mph in under 3.5 seconds. The instant torque provided by the H-D Revelation™ electric powertrain can produce 100 percent of its rated torque the instant the throttle is twisted, and 100 percent of that torque is always available.
- Twist-and-go ease of use: Electric power requires no clutch and no gear shifting, greatly simplifying operation for new riders. All riders will appreciate the braking effect of the power regeneration mode as it adds charge to the battery, especially in stop-and-go urban traffic.
- H-D™ Connect Service: The LiveWire motorcycle is equipped with H-D™ Connect, which pairs motorcycle riders with their bikes through an LTE-enabled Telematics Control Unit coupled with connectivity and cloud services using the latest version of the Harley-Davidson™ App. This technology makes the LiveWire motorcycle the first North American mass-market cellular-connected electric motorcycle. With H-D Connect, data is collected and transferred to the app to provide information to the rider’s smartphone about:
- Motorcycle status: Information available through H-D Connect includes battery charge status and available range from any location where a sufficient cellular signal is available. This allows the rider to remotely check the charge status including charge level and time to completion. Riders will be able to locate a charging station with ease thanks to an integrated location finder built into the H-D App.
- Tamper alerts and vehicle location: H-D Connect indicates the location of the parked LiveWire motorcycle and alerts can be sent to the rider’s smartphone if the bike is tampered with or moved. GPS-enabled stolen-vehicle tracking provides peace of mind that the motorcycle’s location can be tracked.*
- Service reminders and notifications: Reminders about upcoming vehicle service requirements, automated service reminders and other vehicle care notifications.
- Performance and range optimized for the urban street-rider: Able to travel an estimated 110 miles of urban roads on a single charge.
- Handling and control: The LiveWire motorcycle chassis is designed to deliver agile handling for confident control on urban streets and a thrilling ride on curving backroads. The H-D Revelation™ powertrain sits low in the motorcycle to lower the center of gravity and help the motorcycle handle well at all speeds and make it easier to balance when stopped. The motorcycle also features advanced technology including standard cornering-enhanced Anti-lock Braking System and Traction Control. The systems are fully electronic and utilize the latest inertial measurement unit and ABS sensor technology.
- Distinctive Harley-Davidson sound, minimal vibration: The H-D Revelation electric powertrain produces minimal vibration, heat, and noise, all of which enhance rider comfort. The LiveWire model is designed to produce a new signature Harley-Davidson sound as it accelerates and gains speed. This new futuristic sound represents the smooth, electric power of the LiveWire motorcycle.
For more information on the “More Roads to Harley-Davidson” plan, go to https://investor.harley-davidson.com/news-and-events/accelerated-strategy.
See more of MD’s great photography:
No way is thing going to be profitable. How are you going to compete at this price level? If Harley wants to attract younger riders they are going to have to do something like bring back the Buell Blast. Or how about a barebones 883? Get the price way down and the customers will be lined up out the door!
The only thing the Blast attracted was an automobile crusher.
That didn’t take long to devolve into politics.
everything is related to either sex, money or politics
Costs $10k more than a Zero motorcycle while having less range?
I wish the Range on these would increase and the price decrease. I would be interested in an off road model with about 4-6 hrs of range. I’m still waiting for that big break thru in battery tech to greatly increase the usability of all of our existing battery dependent technology.
Unfortunately, I think we are up against physics and chemistry. We might need to start exploring liquid energy storage again – or solids…
Paul, I agree wholeheartedly with you. However, so many people will never understand this side of the argument because of all the so-called science they have been fed. I have heard of all this “sky is falling” nonsense since I was a kid in school. If a person was to believe all the stuff (new ice age, no more oil, no more minerals, no more food, plagues, ……) they threw in my face 50 years ago, I should’ve been dead by now. It’s like a religion to the climate alarmists. Not to say that I’m non-religious by any means. If Al Gore really believed that his word is truth, I dare him to buy a home in Wisconsin. After all, we should not be having winters anymore due to the warming planet and I should be riding my bike comfortably all year long. Come on Al, I dare you. But be aware “Dr.” Gore, the whole state is frozen solid as I type this. No different than it was 50 years ago.
If you live in the upper Midwest and you don’t see the evidence of climate change over time, you’re willfully ignorant. Every industry that relies on weather borne resources have been struggling to rationalize their futures. Don’t believe it? Open a snowmobile business.
the production of any electric vehicle cannot be brought down without huge government subsidies and tax breaks. And even then they are too expensive for most of the public to buy. But that seems to be the business model that is being sought after by would be billionaires. That is not my demographic, and I am not in that market.
You have it exactly backwards. EV’s will never be profitably produced while gov’t subsidies and tax breaks continue. Only competition will make EV’s worth their cost. Government involvement guarantees bloat and inefficiency.
Yes, I agree. That was what I intended to convey in other words.
Here’s a thought.. if Harley’s target audience isn’t current motorcyclists or motorcyclist wannabes, why did they put in so much effort to make it look like a motorcycle, with a faux gas tank, and a faux muffler, current design motorcycle forks and frame, foot pegs, handlebars, useless bullet fairing?
it’s obvious by design who they are hoping will but this bike.
I just wish people would grasp the fact that carbon dioxide IS NOT a contributor to climate change. It would save us all from all the stupid goose-chasing technology and useless carbon taxes. Climate change IS happening, because the climate of this planet has ALWAYS been changing and always will. Poisoning the land with battery manufacturing on this potentially massive skill is INSANITY.
Paul, Where in the article does it reference carbon dioxide ?
I am glad I don’t live and breathe the foul air in Beijing and New Delhi where the air is a haze of suspended particles.
Electric cars, bikes and trucks are needed and needed now.
It’s better to have their electric energy produced in a safer place like a power station than ICE powered vehicles.
Bikes like the HD here a just a step in a long and expensive journey.
Nobody is talking about carbon dioxide, here. But even if you don’t believe it is a greenhouse gas that is contributing to climate change, what does that have to do with anything? Electric cars and motorcycles can offer benefits that have nothing to do with carbon dioxide. They aren’t a fit for everyone, but they can stand on their own merits for buyers that appreciate what’s on offer.
I went for a ride in a Tesla the other day. I was really impressed by the way the car accelerates. Nothing to do with carbon dioxide. Can’t wait for an affordable electric scooter.
They are impressive cars for sure. I was even impressed with the new Nissan Leaf. Our driving habits rule out an electric car for now, but I’ll probably get one if things change. Same for electric motorcycles… I couldn’t use one now, but I really like the idea of one – an electric dirt bike in particular.
The climate has always changed, but it has never changed anywhere near as fast as it has since humans industrialized. You don’t believe that Co2 is a greenhouse gas? Fine. What is it that we’re doing that’s causing it (we are causing it, that is not debatable), then? The deniers never have an answer for that.
Aren’t we confusing carbon dioxide with carbon monoxide?
We are not causing climate change. CO2 is running at a high today of 403 ppm, the highest since the industrial revolution. Go back further in time and you will see co2 at over 5,000 ppm and global temperatures were going down. Swings in co2 concentrations were even more volatile. There was never any correlation between co2 levels and global temperature.
20 years of satellite study has shown that the earth has actually become greener with the elevated co2, plant life thrives on it. Food production has actually increased on the global scale.
It is arrogance to proclaim that we are causing it, as “it” has been going on in various cycles since the beginning of time on Earth. We are not that relevant in the grand scheme of things. The climate is cyclical. The known universe is cyclical.
The greatest greenhouse gas by far is water vapor. Try and control that, good luck.
Listen to intelligent people such as Freeman Dyson, not idiots like Al Gore.
The main cause for climate change is the activity of the sun, which just happen to be cyclical as well.
Freeman Dyson is an idiot.
Freeman Dyson
Born Freeman John Dyson
15 December 1923 (age 95)
Crowthorne, Berkshire, England
Nationality British-American
Alma mater
University of Cambridge
Cornell University[1]
Known for
Circular ensemble
Random matrix theory
Advocacy against nuclear weapons
Project Orion
Awards
FRS (1952)[3]
Heineman Prize (1965)
Lorentz Medal (1966)
Hughes Medal (1968)
Harvey Prize (1977)
Wolf Prize (1981)
Andrew Gemant Award (1988)
Matteucci Medal (1989)
Oersted Medal (1991)
Enrico Fermi Award (1993)
Templeton Prize (2000)
Pomeranchuk Prize (2003)
Henri Poincaré Prize (2012)
Scientific career
Fields Physics, mathematics
Institutions
Royal Air Force
Institute for Advanced Study
University of Birmingham
Cornell University
Academic advisors Hans Bethe
Influences Richard Feynman[4][5]
Abram Samoilovitch Besicovitch[6]
Website http://www.sns.ias.edu/dyson
Notes
He is the son of George Dyson.
Quantum field theory
Feynmann Diagram Gluon Radiation.svg
Feynman diagram
Freeman John Dyson FRS (born 15 December 1923) is an English-born American theoretical physicist and mathematician. He is known for his work in quantum electrodynamics, solid-state physics, astronomy and nuclear engineering.[7][8] He theorized several concepts that bear his name, such as Dyson’s transform, Dyson tree, Dyson series, and Dyson sphere.
He is professor emeritus in the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, a Visitor of Ralston College,[9] and a member of the Board of Sponsors of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
Yes Anonymous…he is an idiot.. and that would make you a genius, I guess, right up there with Al Gore.
“20 years of satellite study has shown that the earth has actually become greener with the elevated co2…”
That’s because there used to be millions more square miles of ice covering parts of the planet.
You don’t want to believe it, fine. Just try and stay out of the way of the people who’re trying to help. If they’re wrong, you’ll still get clean water and sustainable energy in the end.
No, the enviro-wacko’s “trying to help” are destroying the environment and economy with their ill-advised “solutions”.
Why did you take the bait, Dave? Why!
I don’t know. You’re right, back to moto talk.
Make it slower and less expensive with a longer range. It doesn’t need that much power. Less is more. Make it about as quick as a motorscooter. WHo needs 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds in an electric motorcycle? What’s the point? The point is … well, I don’t really get the point of an electric motorcycle. That’s not that fast anyway. My Hayabusa was about 2.8 seconds. Quarter mile times would be more informative.
You misunderstand Harley. They make things slower, more expensive, with shorter range. They’ve been doing this for ~100 years. Gas or electric, they still follow the same philosophy. The only difference with the LiveWire is that is is quieter.
You can buy a Prius for about 24K. This is crazy, what is HD thinking? This might be the end.
I like the bike. Hate the price. Just way too expensive. People scoffed at Victory for trying to sell what was basically the same level of performance for 10K less. I don’t see that much more value in an IMU and a smart phone app.
I would not buy it if it were $2500. Pigs will fly before I purchase an electric motorcyce
The way is going with electrification of transportation, pigs will start flying in a few years 😉
You’re not thinking rationally. At $2500, this would be a great bike.
For that money I’d buy one and a dew rag
I’m guessing if the H-D MoCo, is serious about this Livewire adventure. They’ll only build these as ordered. Otherwise at $29G these will sit on the sales floor until heavily discounted. I’m sorry not interested.
$30K? OMG, even with HD’s level of arrogance, surely they can’t expect these to sell. If you build them, they will only stack up in warehouses.
I just watched a couple YouTubes of a promotional nature about the first versions of the LiveWire and was struck by how deliberate the verbage walked around all the faults of the bike. It looks like HD new very well how impractical the design was and did nothing to fix the resident issues in the last couple years. Somebody here mentioned “Hail Mary play”.
Awesome bike, just need to chop the motor, batteries, and controller, hang a big twin from the trellis frame, and we’ll be cooking with gas! As for the concept bikes, too little, too late. Bosch, Yamaha, and Shimano (amongst others) are already producing their second and third iterations of this idea.
Electric bikes have their own noise, and although I appreciate quiet bikes, the noise an electric makes I find quite irritating. Whirring or whining, what ever you want to call it, and yes I have ridden one. I didn’t find the lack of gears off putting, and the Zero S I rode had plenty of power. The brakes were good. I found the suspension very stiff. I also found it most disconcerting to pull up to a stop light or stop sign and receive no feedback from the bike. It was like it stalled or just quit. That was probably my fourth biggest complaint about the bike, although one would certainly get accustomed to it I suppose. My wife’s Toyota does basically the same thing. Pull up to a stop light and it quits. My wife likes it. Drives me nuts. My first three complaints about the e bike were the price, range and recharging time. The new Harley does nothing to address those issues and even makes it worse with a 33% premium in price.
Fail to see how this will sell in any significant numbers. Could be wrong.
I’ve owned 6 Harleys in my life. Only one was new ($6k sportster). Now that I am retired and 63, my next bike will be a Ninja 650 or 400. I would love an electric scooter that goes at least 60 mph with a 100 mi. range.
I’ve always thought a scooter would be the perfect platform for an electric bike.
I agree. Even gas scooters represent some of the most efficient personal transportation you can get (check out the Yamaha X-max 300). I feel the same way about cars- I think the Checy Bolt or Nissan Leaf is much closer to ideal personal transportation than anything Tesla makes, but unfortunately, a transportation revolution must pull at the consumer’s heart strings and we consumers generally covet performance metrics that aren’t really practically important (acceleration, top-speed, super-long range). If people were really honest with themselves about how they used their vehicles and informed their purchases that way, the transportation landscape in the US would look completely different. Scooters and small cars would be far more common on our roads.
Indeed. Is BMW the only mainstream OEM that makes one?
Love the bike! Just need to chop the motor, battery, and controller out of it and hang a big twin from the trellis frame and we’ll be cooking with gas! As for the concept bikes, way too little, way too late! It’s already being done very well by others; Bosch, Yamaha, and Shimano plus a number of lesser known names.
The price, range and weight. It should sink like an anchor in the Mariana Trench.
They all look pretty much on-brand for hardly-able to…
Is H-D Electric Concept 1 for sale? Not interested in anything else.
This is just one of many options currently out there for sale
https://www.electricbike.com/sur-ron/
Thanks for that. Looks like a lot of fun, that could easily be my next dirt bike!
Back on track: new Nissan Leaf (3rd gen) sells for same price as e-pork, over 200 miles range.
keep selling t-shirts!
Bar hopping range…perfect!
The same as plenty of ICE bikes with small gas tanks. A stupid idea whose time should never have come. This thing is worthless except for people with green egos.
As for its HD signature sound? Probably sounds like a vacuum sucking your wallet dry.
At least with the small-tanked ICE bikes you can refill in 5 minutes at a gas station. This thing will take far longer to charge the battery than to drain it.
I never expect much technical excellence out of Harley Davidson. Here is an example why. $30k for a bike that is obsolete out of the box. With the kind of range that only a city dweller can use. I wouldn’t be able to get to the nearest city and back on a charge.
Given that Zero claims of highway miles are half that of urban miles. This bike is probably good for about 55 highway miles. That’s a darn short leash for a premium priced bike. One with less than half the range of a bike that costs half as much.
A technological marvel I am sure.
How does it translate ‘Whirrrr Whirrr’ into a seriously dB loud ‘Potato Potato’ without means of external speakers ?
Ah, a wonderful marvel of engineering that for sure, even if it took 6 long years.
Obviously, it will do the mashed potato, or savory potato depending on how hep the rider wants to appear.
I am trying to find a place in my minds eye to catagorise it and nothing works, which may be the bigger problem in the long run for HD. Cruiser, Sportbike, Standard, Sportster, Bagger, Moto, Adventure Tourer, Triumph Rocket 3 wannabe ? The crotch rocket ergoes appear to be the greatest discontinuity of image.
A technological marvel I am sure. Does it translate ‘Whirrr Whirrr’ into a high dB ‘Potato Potato’ without the use of speakers ???
I seriously doubt it.
Should be good for at least 10 trips to Starbucks between charges.
Don’t forget to get your free cup card punched.
You’re gonna need it.
The Zero SR. The zero can go over twice as far for almost half the money. I’ll give the HD the edge on looks, but that knee bend looks like a lot.
Dear HD. Please fire your styling department and your marketing department.
Styling – Not that this bike looks bad, but, it is a problem if you spend too much time dressing for the party that you miss the actual party. Let the HD Engineers rule the roost for once. They will turn out a good looking, more functional, machine in half the time. Development lead-time on this bike was sad.
Marketing – Fire who you have working in this department and hire some folks that eat, sleep and live in their helmets. Preferably, people that ride to work and preferably people that do not ride HDs to work. HD marketing is disconnected from motorcycling and it is ruining your company.
Wow, you just described a whole group of people that wouldn’t want to work for H-D.
Love your post. You nailed it and in an entertaining way.
Nailed it so hard. H-D has always been about selling bikes to bikers, not motorcycles to motorcyclists. The “ride to work” part nails it – when I rode to work in SF I don’t recall ONE H-D EVER in any motorcycle parking slot.
If the Fashion Party is over, H-D is lost when it comes to figuring out anything non-H-D Image people might want to ride.
I’ve read motorcycledaily pretty much every day for many years, but this is my first comment. I have had more motorcycles than I would want to count, from dirt to cruisers to liter bikes to my current KTM SDR.
I really like this bike! I agree it should not have taken 4 years from prototype to dealership, but this is full size, real electric motorcycle, it looks great, and it’s sold by a (mostly) American company. Sure, I wish it was $19K rather than $29K, but this thing is NOT a turd. Not even close. I want one!
I challenge anyone to point out a real competitor to this for less money. The closest is a Lito SORA, and it costs $77K!
Harley riders are notoriously brand loyal … but only if the bike is a v-twin with enormous pistons. They will buy nothing else. The real question: Can Harley lure non-Harley people with electric tech. In that case they are competing against gas-powered bikes, which offer similar performance at a much lower purchase price. Tesla has proven it is possible, and I wish Harley all the luck. But I’m very skeptical.
Enormous pistons are the big trucks of bike-land
Oh and electric tech/luring? No way – if non-bike people were fascinated by this every bun-head in the land would have a Zero already.
I can see your point. You are saying it’s the best ebike for it’s money. So if it was 20k you would buy it because it has better performance and about equal range to it’s nearest competitor (another ebike). I’m a sportbike guy so I would buy it at 30k if it had similar styling, range, speed, agility, as a Honda CBR1000RR. For 20k I would expect supersport performance (600cc). So I would pay roughly twice as much for similar performance. But this bike isn’t a sportbike. It can’t match even supersport performance. So does this bike compete against a gas naked standard or cruiser? Against naked standard it has equal performance less range and is over 3 times the price. Against a cruiser this is 1/3 more than the V-Rod was correct? Will cruiser riders buy it. People make the Tesla comparison but Tesla competes against similarly priced Luxury cars. Price out a high BMW vs a Tesla S and a BMW 3 series against the low end Tesla. But cars are primary forms of transportation. Bikes in the U.S. are hobby items. My problem is I don’t think the market is big enough for it even as a luxury bike.
You should look at an LS218 e bike, 218 mph, 200 hp, sport bike big range for an ebike, won Pikes Peak. American made, but it costs $10k more than this Harley
Thanks Mickey. Found the review on Motorcycle Daily. Beautiful bike. Now that is exactly what I was talking about glad to see someone is working on it and American made. .
https://www.motorcycledaily.com/2015/06/greased-frightening-lightning-motorcycles-scary-fast-ls-218-md-riding-impression/
Here you go.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/
I don’t know how many they expect sell, but at $29,800 I don’t think it will be very many.
Looks like a Hail Mary to me. I wish them luck.
I am on my fourth Honda. Over the years I paid far less for all four of them than the price of this Harley. As I get older (70) I keep looking for a reason to buy a Harley. This is not it.
Zero it is then.
Hey, how about showing a little optimism. No more exploding cam chain tensioners and misaligned flywheels with excessive pinion shaft run out.
Chip n Charge at every Dealership. Good luck HD. Finally a smooth n quiet ride.
Maybe Harley shouldn’t have stabbed Alta in the back – but then, maybe they were afraid of them becoming competition and had to eliminate them?
Oh, and then Harley opens an electric motorcycle development facility nearby to poach all the employees now looking for a job. Much cheaper than a partnership. Making ‘Murica great!
It almost seems that HD is following the Sears business model. HD management isn’t to blame, its the share holders that allow such a bunch of incompetent leaders to manage the MOCO.
HD was lucky enough to become trendy in the mid nineties. They have been riding that wave ever since. Now that it has crashed on the beach they need to be aware of the undertow. I wouldn’t trust HD management to change the mints in a urinal.
lol
Lucky? T2. Moichandising.
This reminds me a lot of the Leica camera company. They released a range of eccentric, buggy, and anachronistic digital camera designs about 5 years after other companies had already sold mature digital products for less than half the price. People still bought the Leicas though, and the company continues to limp along at the boutique brand market segment.
One wonders if they might have been wiser to create the first hybrid motorcycle rather than a full-on electric. I also wonder about the near silence, as HD is the home of the “loud pipes saves lives” crowd.
Also, just as a bit of info, EVs always have better urban range than highway range. EVs use little power at a standstill and are very efficient at less than 50% peak power. If the bike has an urban range of 110 miles, most likely the highway range will be less than 75 miles.
It is a cool-looking machine and it’s possible they went with this look to try and draw those without vests and chaps into dealerships.
Correction: EV motor efficiency has almost nothing to do with power usage. Electric motorcycle range is primarily affected by the drag caused by air resistance which increases geometrically with speed.
They will still have that same iconic sound “potato potato”. Part of the sound system! Optional amplifiers of 20,000 watts will be available. Disclaimer: mileage may be reduced with use of these amplifiers.
It has less than half the range, and yet its almost double the price of a Zero SR, INSANE!
Comparing this to the SR isn’t quite fair. The Zero is made from the cheapest components available. Everything from bargain bin turn signals, to crappy brakes, to flimsy plastics is used on the Zero. The Harley is definitely not a bargain however, and I wouldn’t even consider buying one. After my experience with owning a Zero, I wouldn’t consider owning another one of those either.
So Harley put their money where it counts, premium turn signal stalks, off the shelf Brembos and premium plastic…sounds like a bargain.
HD became popular, rich, and famous when the baby-boomer dudes embraced its products – fine’n’dandy, but i doubt many guys and gals younger than i (70) will turn head over heels for this new product, much less the continuing line of big cruisers.
as i’ve mentioned before, i tested a new 2015 or 2016 street bob. i loved everything about it, but i couldn’t justify the price, even tho’ all cash was burning a hole in my pocket. heck, if i wait a year, say, maybe i’ll find a new one for 10K 😉 😉
I just financed a very low mileage ‘17 Fat Bob 3 weeks ago for a little over $10 grand. I’m loving it so far. You should look again.
I went down to the store on Broadway here in Manhattan the day they had test rides. Didn’t have time to ride but it looked interesting. In case you were wondering, that was JULY 2014! By the time this gets to dealers, FIVE YEARS will have elapsed. You can’t survive in today’s world unless you move more quickly.
Needs to be around $12k-15k
Harley Stock today $36.48 per share
52Wk Range
31.36-56.50
Harley really needs a cash cow as it’s stock is under performing vs it’s low P/E ratio Normally folks would pounce on this stock with the low ratio. So investors aren’t buying in yet. They see an aging customer base, a slow market for bikes and new riders are going elsewhere. Here on the Techy west coast Tesla owners aren’t the types to have HDs in the garage. Having a Tesla is a fashion statement and status symbols that says I’m successful, environmentally conscious and a love high tech. The cars are beautiful and fun to drive. But Teslas are their daily drivers. For more fun, if a Telsa owner does have a bike it’s more likely to be a Ducati. Ducatis are also chic here and I see the younger techy types riding the lower end Ducati bikes like the Monster and Supersport. Those Ducati bikes have good tech, especially the Supersport. Too bad they killed Buell. A high end electric sportbike designed by Buell would attract the high end techy crowd.
It is really a shame that HD doesn’t have the benefit of your considerable knowledge and the rest of the Monday morning quarter backs on this site. A virtual wealth of business acumen going to waste. Full disclosure I stopped reading after P/E ratio. Try rolling up your sleeves and writing everything in caps.
No worries HalfBaked I see a touched a nerve.
a perineal one
Your comment is creepy and strange and I’m not really even sure what it is supposed to mean.
Ouch. That’s a stinging rebuke Rimfire Hunt. A meaningless passive/aggressive comment is always a safe bet when you don’t have an explanation for why you take yourself so seriously.
I will defer to you as the expert on touched nerves Rimfire Hunt. And no worries to you either as your meaningless passive/aggressive comment indicates you have no response to my post.
30K and it goes approx. 100 miles on a charge? DOA.
WTF 110 mile range?? For this price maybe harley and starbucks could come together, offer life time latte’s with every bike sold. Does anyone remember the Polaris impulse. Very similar looking, they couldn’t give them away.
If the hard core Harley fans hated the V-rod(I have one and love it), what makes Harley think this thing will sell. Especially considering the price.
Nice concept but I predict not many will be seen on the street.
Sadly, Harley just doe not make anything I would consider buying at this point.
I’ve owned 10 HD’s since ’82. Agree 100%. I cant see it selling – who is the target mission or audience? I don’t see anything I need in that thing.
V-Rod – exactly. A fine bike by many accounts but not what the H-D standard market wants, and also proves that if they try to redefine that market it just doesn’t work. Which means there’s probably several lessons in there….
According to the video link I posted earlier from Jay Leno’s garage the first electric motorcycle was patented in 1897 and by early 1900’s Popular mechanics said they would go 75-100 miles on a charge. Here’s the link again, watch the first 2 minutes at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyJr8BoklC0
Tell me again how far we have come with electric motorcycles? lol
It probably had a top speed of 10 mph and spit battery acid all over the ladies.
Well… for 30 grand.. they should expect to sell at least two.. maybe three. Yes.. lets all park our gas powered vehicles and drive electric. Yes.. good idea.. have anymore jokes to tell?
I really wanted a solid win for H-D. I was hoping the Livewire would be their Phoenix. At $30k this will be a limited production model that will not finance additional R&D to more mainstream electric bikes. If H-D can’t produce a model more aligned with other commercial offerings from this design, it appears to be a dead end. Perhaps H-D is just looking to hose early adopters.
I agree that this bike isn’t intended for motorcyclists or bikers. But at $30,000 I don’t see it attracting riders who want to develop riding skills, but rather show off their wallets. H-D has always attracted posers…it looks like they are targeting a new type of poser.
Cool but not for 30 grand. I would like to see a trend toward cheaper more practical freeway capable electric motorcycles. I will wait for the Chinese knockoff:)
Saw one today at Harbor Freight – $ 7,999.
Why does it essentially have rear sets? So you won’t want to ride it more than 50 miles? Otherwise the rider triangle looks all screwed up.
Way too expensive. Also, the claim of 110 mile city range and 0-60 of 3.5 seconds are mutually exclusive. City range will be more like 40-50 miles with a few 0-60 runs.
…And a bigger range devil is likely hiding in the detail or definition of their carefully worded term, “urban roads” . Does Harley believe these to be 30 or 45 MPH routes? It definitely seems to be a weasel worded phrase.
Sweet. My 2005 VFR800 will go 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. And will do it after riding 200 miles without stopping for fuel.
I’ll take the Concept on the right For $2500 Alex. What is 25 miles. Put on some bags and it is good for 90% of my riding. Distinctive HD sound?? Please tell me it is a speaker going Potato potato.
Harley is about to step on a live wire.
0-60 in 3.5 seconds is ungodly slow for any sort of performance-oriented motorcycle, never mind an electric motorcycle. A 110-mile range (only when ridden ultra-conservatively) makes this bike worthless for anything other than urban commuting, assuming you also have access to charge-up stations. $30K will buy you a decent electric car AND a KTM 790 Duke, if your tastes really do run toward electric, orange, weird, and having actual fun.
The best comment I’ve read here so far mentioned the main problem with this bike, and why it will languish on showroom floors, after being jammed down dealers’ throats in the first place. Obsolescence. Every other Harley model is immune to the Japanese Sportbike Issue, Circa the 1990s and early 2000s, during which the manufacturers updated their supersport models every two or three years, rendering your three-year-old model no longer the fashionably cutting-edge scoot it was at the time of purchase. Or, since we’re talking electric products, think of any smartphone. No one wants a five-year-old iPhone or Galaxy. Technology moves too quickly, and your top-o’-the-line Galaxy 4S all too suddenly becomes worthless to you.
This LiveWire will absolutely need to receive massive tech-upgrades and a much lower price before it can become a competitive product, so who in their right mind (besides wealthy collectors of novelty items) is going to shell out $30K for something that is already woefully obsolete? Every year, hell, every month that it languishes on that showroom floor it will only fall further and further behind the field, and Harley will be forced to improve the tech, rendering your first-year, over-priced Beta tester ever more obsolete.
So, what’s the point?
I don’t think there will be much cross-shopping going on. People who will be interested in this probably won’t be interested in a ICE bike on any level. This is a toy for the wealthy, almost none of whom are going to look at this for it’s utility, and HD probably don’t expect to sell 1,000’s of them, anyway.
As for the performance, 3.5 sec zero to 60 is VERY FAST, for any vehicle. The best 600 SS bikes are only .5 sec faster and I’d wager that the vast majority of riders can’t pilot any motorcycle to 60mph that quickly, regardless of what it’s actually capable of, just the launch would to too difficult for most.
zero to 60 is a pointless performance measure for a motorcycle – unless you have a typical harley engine in it, they geometry and the tendency to wheelie is the limiting factor. Most bikes bigger than a 500 (again, Harley excepted) will get to 60 in less than 4 seconds.
Since you are effectively taking off in third gear, 3.5 seconds is pretty fast. Not to mention that virtually anyone could achieve that kind of acceleration on an electric bike where as they is probably a very small percentage of riders capable or achieving better figures on any ICE bike.
The two recent electric bikes I’ve ridden both felt a little lethargic until they past 25 mph or so. But once they get going, they pack a pretty good punch.
I have a question. I have ridden a Zero S. Seemed pretty fast to me from a standing start, but I never tested it’s top speed. But could this Live Wire (or other e-bikes) be faster/slower than the Zero? What contributes to their acceleration/top speed? Amount of watts or something?
btw When Leno tested the prototype Live Wire he said the top speed was 92 mph which doesn’t seem that fast. That’s 20 mph slower than my electronically nannied CB1100 who people cried about being top speed limited.
It’s power to weight ratio that determines acceleration. Add more horsepower (or Watts), accelerate faster. Remove weight, accelerate faster. There are limits of course: the fact that the CG is above the contact patch limits acceleration. Eliminate the CG problem (move it way low and far forward) and now you are limited to tire traction, which is around 1g. Top speed is dictated by horsepower and aerodynamics; weight is not a factor in top speed.
You’re assuming that the electric bike’s computer is allowing full power at all times. I’m pretty sure that it’s dialed back at lower speeds so it doesn’t wheelie or spin at every throttle application.
I’ve been involved in the design and development of electric vehicles. As Jeremy states, acceleration is really held back by the desired top speed gearing, not electronically. It would be a waste to limit top speed with a low gear ratio (giving “too much acceleration”) just to ALSO limit acceleration electronically.
Electric motors do have a designed in torque curve to be closer to that of an ICE engine. That is done for two reasons; to reduce shock loading on the gear train and, to make the bike accelerate harder as speeds climb (like an ICE) if they didn’t do this, power would seem to fall off with acceleration due to increasing wind resistance.
There are several factors, but since all of the electric bikes save for the defunct Brammo use a single gear ratio, the ratio chosen impacts both acceleration and top speed more than anything else, and would be the only factor in cases where the same battery/motor combo are used.
How many watts can be delivered from the battery to the motor (subject to the motors efficiency in converting electrons into motion) within their thermal limits would loosely be the equivalent of how effectively an ICE can combine fuel an air to produce power.
An electric motor generally has a much broader torque/rpm range than any ICE motor (in the R/C world, electric motors can make useable power from 0-35,000rpm+), especially with dynamic timing advance from the speed controller, so gear ratio is really only a component in efficiency. The motor can pull the gear and it can spin fast enough to go any reasonably conceivable speed with a single gear ratio, it’s more a matter of how much battery power is on board, what the target performance metrics are (acceleration, top speed, and range) and heat management.
The tiny motors of the RC world can spin that fast, but these bigger heavier motors cannot. Saying an electric motor can “pull” a gear is completely irrelevant – If it will pull a particular gear, it will pull a lower gear easier and thus accelerate faster (and in turn hit the motors limit sooner thus lowering top speed.)
You can of course use a more powerful battery and/or motor for a given gear ratio and accelerate faster, just like you could put a more powerful engine in a given bike and go faster. But when engineers of an electric bike with fixed gearing are deciding how fast they want that bike to accelerate, they have to decide what compromises they want to make with the gear ratio. Those compromises include efficiency (with respect to range).
To be fair, I just looked up the performance of the various Zero models, and only their most performance-oriented (and expensive) versions of their bikes do any better in 0-60 performance, and not much at that..
I gather that you’ve never actually ridden an electric bike. It is really hard to out-accelerate an electric bike in an urban/commuter environment. They are always in the right gear, and there is no clutch to feather/slip/feed. There will be a lot of embarrassed sport bikers out there when the stoplights go green.
Will it really be a hard sell? Lots of Harley riders are used to paying $30k for a motorcycle. The name still has a power cachet in many circles. Lots of HD’s current customers are used to a sub-100-mile range, and don’t regularly ride more than that in a day. Many don’t ride over 60mph, or leave town. The LiveWire will be a big step up in performance for many of them. Many HD customers are okay with technology moving slowly, and many others are happy to spend big money to get the new version of the same bike.
I’m pretty convinced that HD will have an easier time moving electric bikes than Kawasaki would.
Ouch!
When I heard about this becoming a production bike to help HD in its sales slump, I thought they would price it to sell. Too little and wayyyyyy to much (weight and cost).
RIP HD
So sorry to see your current management are incompetent.
I’ll just wait for the Japanese version.
I love the performance of electric motorcycles, had one, sold it. I think as a street bike it has to lean more towards the commuter market, sort of like Zero has done. If you’re lucky like me and live close to good roads to actually have fun on, electric doesn’t work unless you like going slow, I guarantee that 110 mile range they mention is without twisting the throttle much. Imo, electric bikes need to cost less than ICE bikes because people do sacrifice range and convenience of petrol, and do not give me the “electric means less maintenance” thing, electric bikes break down more than ICE bikes do, you’ll be replacing the $3k battery before you have to rebuild a gas burner.
Now, for city commuting and especially off road, electric is cool, very cool. I’ll buy another electric street bike when I can re-charge in a half hour (preferably less) and get an actual 2-3 hours of “ride it the way I want to” range, til then, smell my fumes…
“The LiveWire represents the future of Harley-Davidson” Unfortunately, they may be all too correct on this. Bye, Felicia.
With apologies to Steppenwolf:
Get your motor humming
No range for the highway
Lookin’ for a charger
Hope that no rain comes our way –
Born to be wired!
(Hey, I was kind enough to leave out the “I like smoke and lightning” line). With a little more time, one could re-do the entire song, this stuff just writes itself. Anybody who wants to add stanzas, feel free.
LOL… very good Tom.
Tom, someone’s liable to take a turn for the verse…. 😉
i’m turned on by the ‘lectric transportation industry. a batteried bicycle may be my next garage tenant tech-toy. i wouldn’t mind seeing the coal industry going the way of the dodo; how ’bout water-, wind-, and nuclear-powered (neck stuck way out…) electricity?
not innerstid in an elec. auto due to short range – we travel cross-country by car almost every year, sometimes two times. lots of lonely miles to cover in the southwest.
I love the LiveWire, but it will DOA when it arrives. The range is too short for us riders and price is for old rich white guys again. I hope the new HD adventure bike and other non-cruisers are better priced. Harley you’re in danger of being a dinosaur. SMH.
HD just fell on the sword of their own making. $30k? What do they think it is? A Street glide? LOL What a frigging joke which is all they have become. I owned plenty of the old stuff which was pure crap yet its looking like maybe that was them at their best…..AMF couldn’t have screwed this up as badly.
The main problem I see is Harley riders buy Harleys because they SOUND powerful and fast. With out the potato-potato soundtrack, it won’t fly with the traditional Harley crowd. Playing cards held against the spokes with clothes pins won’t get it, I’m thinkin’.
Is this the best they can do? Really? They are headed to be out of business, similar to path Sears is on….
“In U.S. Dealers This Fall” – aaand still in U. S. Dealers next fall.
At least nobody can snivel about the hideous mufflers.
Now, that BMX looking model really intrigues me.
I know one of the buyers will be Jay Leno, but I don’t know the other nine
Exactly.
If Jay “buys” something, it’s a promotional stunt. Sure he buys stuff he likes but he can also be convinced to endorse a new product just like every other celebrity. He may “buy” one and then sell it at a premium to someone who likes to buy stuff once owned by a celebrity.
Here he is reviewing one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyJr8BoklC0
Great looking bike. Price needs to be under $15K.
I’ll bet they sell DOZENS of these.
Harley Davidson perpetuates its insanity once again.
Our household’s been driving electric cars for 7 years. Currently have the new Nissan Leaf which has an MSRP of 34K but with 5k discount and 10k incentives=19k + tax. It goes 150-160 miles and is silent & plenty fast. It can carry 5 people.
So we have a great SUV for well less than this Harley- that isn’t even set up to even take a passenger on.
I rode the new Zero SR and was blown away at how FAST it is. It’s not fat or heavy. It’s nimble. It’s range and price-point beats this (ugly IMHO) monstrosity handily. The idea that Harley has made this mess emit some kind of noise is totally preposterous.
BTW I ride an Yamaha R1, but the Zero SR is far more practical and versatile for daily riding. (Range – up to 223 miles in the city and 112 miles on the highway,)
This is obviously a bike for the rich and famous, to sit and look at. Maybe Leno will buy one so we can see it once a year, at the Hansen Dam Ride.
On this day, Harley thought that it was Apple.
Quite possibly. I truly think it looks like a cool machine, but the price: WTF??
I have been loyal to The Harley Davidson corporation, they are a great motorcycle,I own other brands too, but this motorcycle is priced too high for for most people for such a short range. 200-250 miles, 20k then it might sell. But the way it is I don’t think it will be successful. Too bad, a good looking motorcycle.
NO COMMENT!
Well, if you insist. This is sad to watch.
I keep thinking it is some kind of bad joke. HD has lost its mind.
No rear seating / traveling capability, looks like it weighs a ton, can’t go more than 100 miles on a fill-up, looks like a stupid exercise in wretched excess with absolutely no redeeming social qualities at all. Oh I almost forgot, costs about 3 times what a decent motorcycle should.
Other than that I guess it’s pretty good!
The range is misleading since a “fill up” on an electric bike could fill up the better portion of a day. Most likely, you’ll need to limit your trips to 40-50 miles so you can make it back home to charge over night. If I visit my father in-law a few towns up the road, I would need to pack our bags and plan on staying the night. First stop would be the hardware store to get a 100’ extension cord so I’d be able to leave in the morning. Maybe I’d need to get a Lyft for my stuff since I could barely fit me and my wife on the bike, let alone a change of clothes and some toothbrushes.
Sounds like they geared it for a 60 mph top speed to get the best acceleration. Maybe that’s why they say it’s only optimized for the “urban rider”, i.e. around town.
You can get 100 percent instant torque on an ice bike too. It’s called dumping the clutch.
“You can get 100 percent instant torque on an ice bike too. It’s called dumping the clutch.” Not the way an ICE motor works. You may want to do a little research on that one.
Hmm, looks like you’re the one who needs a refresher course.
I’d rather buy two Alta SMs and bring a friend.
Obviously meant as a low volume halo bike going forward into the future. I don’t think HD sees throngs of bearded, tattooed road warriors whirling toward Sturgis anytime soon. Throw some ape hangers on there and forward controls and they might!
In this thread – too heavy (compared to a different Harley?), too expensive (compared to a different Harley?), too short range (compared to the average ride?) and too innovative (but Harley isn’t innovative). Too much complaining…
I want a fast electric bike in my garage and I’m excited to see them coming. Tons of torque, quiet, fast as f###, low maintenance – sign me up.
You could have bought a Zero S a long time ago and already had one in your garage. I test rode one 2 years ago.
The bike looks nice and if it has the performance, should be an e-ticket ride. But $30K? Wowza! Hopefully this is a flag-ship model and some lower cost models will follow along. I’m not a Harley-Hater. I’ve had a few and they were good bikes and personally I would like to see the Motor Company survive.
I hear taps being played.
The production version isn’t quite as clean as the preproduction model, but it is still nice.
But $30,0000? What justifies that kind of premium over the competition in market segment that most people think is greatly overpriced to begin with. Do buyers of electric bikes really place the same value on Harley’s brand equity as cruiser buyers? I highly doubt that.
I don’t know for sure, but I think the electric motorcycle market is a completely different animal from a consumer standpoint than what Harley has in mind.
$30,000 is what Harley Riders will pay as a premium for riding a Harley and knowing that you won’t be able to and they’ll have an exclusive bike to hold their nose up high
And keep in mind, most motorcyclists either aren’t ready for or don’t want an electric motorcycle. I know I don’t. An electric car maybe someday once they are more refined. Electric motorcycle, never.
I think if they want them to sell they’ll have to give them away.
Goodness, what does this thing weigh? Ever picked up ONE basic motorcycle battery for an ICE bike? Just that is real freakin’ heavy for its overall size. Imagine attaching about 20 of these together. For those who think an Adventure bike is hard to pick up, you’re gonna need a crane if this thing flops over.
Oh, and make sure you turn around and head for home after no more than 55 miles out (of very conservative riding).
55 miles? That’s our meet-up point.
I guess I could have a cup of coffee with the guys then go home while they spend the rest of the day riding.
Yeah….no!
You’re referring to a lead-acid battery, this uses lithium batteries (as almost all modern EV’s do). If you ever get the chance, pick up a lithium ICE motorcycle battery- it’s so light it feels like an empty box.
That’s not to say this will be lightweight, but it won’t be nearly has heavy is you may be imagining.
Too bad Elon Musk isn’t into motorcycles.
I saw this at the Harley 115th anniversary celebration in Milwaukee, this past August, and talked to a couple of the engineers, a great looking bike it is , but I think like most here the price is WAY to high
Except for the fairing, I liked the look of this bike when it first appeared. Unlike other Harley Davidsons, the styling is more form follows function instead of form over function. But $30,000 ??? That is more than I paid for both of my current bikes combined. That is nearly as much as I paid for our first house(that will date me).
You have to factor in total cost of ownership and all the money you’ll save on valve adjustments. LOL!
Hydraulic valves on gas Harleys..
Lifters.
My joking assumed (possibly incorrectly) that Jim’s other two bikes were not Harleys. It was also a commentary about the endless grousing concerning the cost of valve maintenance, especially on $20K+ toys.
I should have focused on the lack of tank seams instead.
You must have heard me grousing about the clearances being out on my KTM earlier this year. The cost of valve adjustments for me is my time, occasionally a couple of shims, and some gaskets. I enjoy the work.
I will acknowledge the lack of oil changes at $60 a pop for just the oil will keep the cost down, but at $30,000 it will take a lot of oil changes to make up for double the amount I paid for the KTM.
The lack of tank seams is a good point. I had missed that. It almost makes up for the fairing.
Hydraulically adjusted valve lash clearance.
God I wish poster’s obsession with valve lash clearance and its maintenance would go away. If it starts easily, makes little top end noise, and does not cough/spit on deceleration, fuggedabowt the OEM maintenance interval! (Ignore this advice for Desmos.)
I think Harley done a great job in designing this bike. It definitely has a Harley look to it which may be important to many. And yes, there will be a few well heeled people that will go for it for the exclusiveness of an electric Harley. And while I hoped that a major manufacturer would bring the MSRP down to a reasonable level, that appears to be not the case AGAIN with this one. Remember the Victory Empulse (lightly massaged Brammo by another name)? According to my information, they (Victory) sold only slightly more than 100 examples of that also expensive, but great looking bike, and with this Harley being an Ungodly 30,0000 plus change by the time it is OTD, I don’t see it making much of an impact with the new younger, upwardly mobile millennials that Harley hopes to bring into the fold. Harley is bringing or is to bring many new models unlike anything they had before to make them more desirable to newer Harley owners, but so far, they seem to be coming in at premium prices during a cycle in the economy where disposable income is at a minimum. Best of Luck Harley, I think you are REALLY going to need it.
What does this battery with wheels weigh? Old farts like me need something they can pick up if they drop it! Is a charger included?
And the $29,700 price; by the time destination charge, doc fees, sales tax and a bunch of dealer added accessories are figured in, this thing will be approaching $35,000 or more.
Too much too late HD.
HD displayed a LiveWire prototype at Daytona several years ago. One of its marketed “features” was that it was designed to be loud. Seriously? A deliberately loud electric motorcycle? It was very loud. Unfortunately, it wasn’t loud in a cool “potato-potato” exhaust way, but sounded more like the whine of bad bearings in a car differential. Hopefully, HD has changed their marketing strategy and quieted the production bikes.
Unfortunately, I just noticed this in the HD press release:
“Distinctive Harley-Davidson sound, minimal vibration: The H-D Revelation electric powertrain produces minimal vibration, heat, and noise, all of which enhance rider comfort. The LiveWire model is designed to produce a new signature Harley-Davidson sound as it accelerates and gains speed. This new futuristic sound represents the smooth, electric power of the LiveWire motorcycle.”
Too bad they designed it to be loud. Motorcyclists have to realize that tinnitus is a real possibility from long-term riding and having a intentionally loud, high-frequency wine as a good starting point two years of debilitating noise in your head.
So I said to my wife when Harley announced the LiveWire availability ” I will buy this bike if it’s in the range of $15k” which is compatible with the other electric bikes like Zero, however the LiveWire is much nicer, BUT $30K price? no thanks I want to remain married and I will keep my V-Rod. So next week I will go pick up my wife’s new Subaru Ascent for $35K!!
Does anybody see the stupidity of crotch rocket knee bend and a seat position so absolutely confining on a nifty new motorcycle ? Oh, by the way, remember Buell ? Got $30 k to gamble ? Geeze Louise !
I don’t think the price is so much of an issue with a HD product but the ergonomics of the Live Wire. 99% of HD repeat customers simply don’t ride this style of bike. Most are feet forward controls and a smaller percentage are mid controls…which happen to also be somewhat forward. Regardless, they are all low seat height, long and lazy cruisers. HD are banking this model on a customer they’ve never acquired before. Nor have they tried to acquire that type of rider. (Trying to pass off a bought out Buell as a gateway wasn’t a real attempt. It wasn’t their creation in the first place) Chances are those customers won’t ever go to HD just because it is HD. That’s a shame too because the Live Wire is a pretty darn good looking bike.
I have to admit the looks satisfy my need for a little marcho in a torquer, except for the lower egos. It actually looks Harley to me. Maybe it is a good idea to not appeal to the HD set, but just make a motorcycle instead of an image.
Wow. Sorry HD you aren’t Tesla. Yes Tesla buyers will pay a premium price but it’s for their primary source of transportation. Money spent Motorcycles in the U.S. is usually from a person disposable income. HDs especially. The class of buyer would be above the folks who were in the V-Rod crowd. Chapter 11. Good thing I sold my HD stock and bought Tesla 3 years ago.
You guys are daft if you think this will sell because it’s a HD. It’s priced $13000 higher than the Zero! The Zero is claimed to do 223 miles of urban roads, to this dogs est 110!!! It will die on show room floor for sure.
I think Harleys electric bike is the nicest I’ve seen but at $30,000 dollars it’s priced as rediculously as all their other bikes. There’s other electrics out there with better performance at half the price.
I hate to say it but it’s fun watching HD go out of business.
Mike, curious if you live in the the USA, not that it matters but maybe you could please explain how is it fun to watch a company go out of business that employs thousands of hard working fellow motorcycle enthusiasts??
It wouldn’t be so bad if the DMV went out of business.
Any Boomers here? Remember the mini bike craze of the 60’s. Did that spur you into your motorcycling destiny? It did me. I still remember riding Rupp’s, Mini-Trail’s. CT70’s and home built stuff back then. Could these concept bikes do the same thing today? Disapproving mom’s might let an electric slide by. Neighbor’s calling the cops due to the noise of a dirt bike around suburbia is not an issue. Market these toward kids. Make them dealer serviceable and above toy grade. Make them look like a motorcycle and YES that Flat Track concept should be next on the list. Make it sized for a kid but strong enough for uncle Buck to ride. Sell upgrade kits for it. Call the upgrades Stage 1, Stage 2… Sound like the genius of the 60’s mini’s that got us hooked? Remember how we looked at the big bikes when we walked past them to go get parts? This is how to do it folks! Oh and price them at the same price as a CRF110.
how big is the intersection of “want an electric Harley” and “have 30k very disposable $”.
I can’t imagine that’s very big group. Maybe that’s why the high price.. there’s only a hundred or so potential buyers
I bet it’s bigger than you think. People said similar things about Tesla, an $80k car that didn’t go as far on a charge as a BMW did on a tank of gas, yet now they sell them almost as fast as they can make them.
This won’t be the same largely because it’s a motorcycle and by the numbers, no full size motorcycle sells in big numbers as seen in the automotive world. But it doesn’t have to, all it needs to do is capture the imagination of some wealthy .com guys who have the kind of money to buy this for a toy.
Forget it’s electric for a second and just look at it, and consider who made it. When was the last time HD did something so far outside of their normal market? This is a brand builder and it will be a success if it convinces people that Harley really can do things other than cruisers.
I am not convinced to buy stock in HD. The Tesla crowd is much different. Environmental conscious professionals who are buying Telsa’s for their primary transportation vs. someone buying an electric HD motorcycle. Hmm apples and oranges Dave. Glad I don’t have HD stock anymore.
I’m not rushing to buy their stock either, but I bet some of these wind up in the same garages as Teslas.
Last time was the XG Streets, and look how thy’re selling. Before that it was the Buell and they killed that. Next….
People said $80K Tesla’s would be a tough sale against $80K ICE cars. How would an $80K Tesla have sold against an electric car that offered the same (or better) range, performance, and gadgetry for $45K?
That’s the scenario we have here. Harley obviously expects to succeed at being the luxury brand among electric bikes. They managed to do it with cruisers. Maybe they’ll succeed here. I’m betting against them in this one, but I wish the best for them.
“How would an $80K Tesla have sold against an electric car that offered the same (or better) range, performance, and gadgetry for $45K? ”
They are selling very well. They haven’t yet delivered the “cheap” model 3 so those are averaging $55k+, selling against premium sedans that cost much less. They are selling as fast as they can make them, and used ones sell for almost as much new (no more tax incentive), if you can find them.
Dave, I think you are missing my point… This isn’t about gas vs. electrons. I am not debating the merits or success of Tesla or of electric cars in general. What I am saying is that an analogy to Tesla does not apply here.
The question isn’t how they sell vs comparable sedans. It is how they might sell vs. nearly identical hypothetical ELECTRIC sedans that cost 40% less.
Because that is what Harley is trying to do. They have produced an electric bike – with no differentiating qualities other than brand name (and intentionally making it sound like a electric drill) – to compete with otherwise same spec electric bikes that cost significantly less. They are betting a lot on the weight of that brand name.
You nailed it red. I can’t see a market that can sustain HD. EBR went out of business with a great product but the price was just too high compared to the competition.
Harley motorcycles are luxury goods these days, like expensive watches. Tesla has successfully made electric vehicles into status symbols and I gotta applaud Harley for being bang on trend here. Further, Harley did a absolutely fantastic job of making an electric Harley: the classic tank shape is there, the bikini fairing evokes the batwing, and they chose a less efficient drive train design in order to produce a cool sound.
I’m a Seiko guy and ride a Kawasaki, I’d never buy this, but I gotta respect HD’s designers and planners for getting this done and putting it out.
+1
Seiko 5, Versys 650 owner here!
While I am not a particular fan of HD, they have had a couple of rather nice bikes for a cruiser line – the Road King comes to mind particularly. This semi-Steampunk styling I find almost comical. I am sure there are some out there with the wallet/credit line that will buy it and ride it, and I hope it’s a good bike and they enjoy it – but I find it just looking like another fugly, heavy, low-performance piece that has been being pumped out for decades. Meh.
29K???? No thanks.
No thanks, 29K is way too much!
HD, just file for chapter 11 now, we all know that’s where your going.
Double the range and half the price and it might be a success. As it stands it will fail.
Yep, they’ll be lining up at the dealership to put down 30K for this. NOT.
I liked the original concept for the live wire better, and I agree $30 large is going to be a very hard sell. I would think it would be a hard sell at $18K.
and the two new concepts? bwahaahaahaaa especially the Briggs and Stratton mini bike copy on the right. Good grief.
There are potential H-D clients for whom $30k is no big deal. Pull out the plastic, move some funds from a capital gains account to cover it, done. This describes one of my all time favorite clients.
While the larger ratio of the public is just staying afloat in this “booming” economy, a smaller ratio like Mitt Romney only see their net worth grow and grow. Over time, luxury OEMs like H-D tend to target the smaller ratio, who are more immune to blips in the economy and have no mental or financial block to spending large sums on disposable goods like this lovely new H-D.
” Pull out the plastic, move some funds from a capital gains account to cover it, done. This describes one of my all time favorite clients.”
Hey maybe he will be the one guy who will buy one of these. Is his name Leno?
I thought the same thing….Jay Leno will buy one and stick it in his museum and that’s about it.
Took that long for someone to pull the Jay Leno card? Disappointing.
well he does have plenty of money and will but literally anything collectible.
Had to laugh as I pictured Mitt Romney riding a Live Wire with a black pudding bowl helmet. Maybe he’ll get a Harley tattoo with a lightning bolt going thru it as well.
I’m guessing the typical Harley client to whom $30K is nothing is not the same client in the market for electric bikes. But I’m sure Harley knows more about that than I do, so I’m likely wrong.
But you make a good point. There is no underestimating the power of successfully positioning something as a luxury good. Tesla’s and iPhones are market leaders for this very reason. Maybe Harley is making the right move after all.
Or could just get a Zero SR w/Power Tank for $16,890 and get 223 miles, a bet it’s faster as well.
Oh Victory, I mean Indian, what are you doing with the Empluse? Probably the best electric bike out there.
I don’t believe there will be many buyers in the US, 30k is just too expensive. You can buy a Zero with higher performance for half the price.
The ones they sell will be forced onto the dealerships initially for the first few years. Some will sell, others will languish on the floor for 4 or 5 years like the Buells did that the sales people refused to give their attention to.
The problem with an e-bike though is that it becomes obsolete after a year. At least with the Buells, being an ICE, is that it was no more obsolete after a year than any other HD product. Some that were 5 years old did sell eventually.
A brand new 5 year old Live Wire likely will not sell unless HD will make the latest batteries retrofittable and offer software updates so that range, power and other features can be improved. If the batteries are redesigned but not the same form and fit, the Live Wire will be a dealership paperweight for eternity.
“Defined the motorcycle industry for the past 116 years”. Suuuure! They may have helped define it in the pre-war era. Since then they have only defined the wannabe bad-boy image, and the associated apparel business.
Kudos to them for finally deciding to look towards the future though.
Now that’s interesting. Kudos to the MoCo for bringing an electric motorcycle to the US market before any of the major Asian or European manufacturers.
Expensive? Yes indeed. Will there be buyers? Also yes indeed. And it’s likely some (or most) buyers won’t be the typical Harley purchasers, and that may be a good thing for the MoCo as it works to extend its base.
Now watch this and other threads for the usual naysayers carping about Harley this and Harley that, and yadda yadda yadda. They want something new! and different! but when the MoCo does that, they exclaim that it will be the end of the world as we know it.
Nailed it, especially the last paragraph!
There’s a small ratio of the public who won’t choke at all at the price. And they’re happy to buy an American label bike from an iconic company, not so much something from a company called “ZERO.”
I hope you guys are right.
But if you go back and look at all the pro and con “discussions” of the Street series, this is almost an identical conversation just minus the price.
And let’s face it, the days of buying an American bike are really over. I just unpacked a parts order and out of the 8 Harley parts, 4 were made in China, 2 made in India, 1 in Mexico and only 1 in the US. The ones who still think they are buying American are the aging riders that this bike is NOT being built for or marketed to.
I remember the when the first MS surface came out and it was a brick. Now, a couple of iterations in, it is a market leader. If HD can improve the product fast enough, it could have a winner.
So these folks are going to pay more than folks paid for a V-Rod? Don’t think so.