Three months ago we reported that Indian had developed a new 122 horsepower v-twin, now featured in its production Challenger models. Harley-Davidson has announced a crate engine that produces a claimed 121 horsepower “at the rear wheel when paired with Screamin’ Eagle Street Cannon mufflers.”
Displacing 131 cubic inches (2147cc), the new motor is a bolt-in replacement for 2017 and later model Harley touring motorcycles, as described below. An oil-cooled version is priced at $6,195, while a “Twin-Cooled” engine can be had for $6,395.
Here is the press release from Harley-Davidson:
MILWAUKEE (January 21, 2020) – Harley-Davidson offers power-hungry street riders a new performance option with the introduction of the Screamin’ Eagle® Milwaukee-Eight® 131 Crate Engine for Touring model motorcycles. The new 131 cubic inch (2147cc) V-Twin delivers the biggest, most powerful street-compliant engine Harley-Davidson has ever created*. The Screamin’ Eagle 131 is a bolt-in replacement for 2017-later model Harley-Davidson Touring motorcycles originally equipped with a Milwaukee-Eight Oil-Cooled or Twin-Cooled™ engine, designed to run at high RPM and provide a significant boost of torque from cruising speed. Riders of many late-model Harley-Davidson Touring motorcycles will experience commanding performance from the moment the throttle is cracked open on the Screamin’ Eagle 131 engine, performance backed by the assurance of a factory limited warranty.
“Our adrenaline-seeking riders asked for thrilling power and torque with reliability,” said Harley-Davidson Product Manager James Crean. “The Screamin’ Eagle 131 Crate Engine delivers exactly that. Developed by the Screamin’ Eagle performance team and factory-assembled at Harley-Davidson Powertrain Operations to ensure the highest quality standards, this high-performance engine is genuine Harley-Davidson.”
This street-ready performance engine features H-D’s finest Screamin’ Eagle components. The Screamin’ Eagle 131 engine combines the 4.5-inch stroke of the Milwaukee-Eight 114 engine with new 4.31-inch bore cylinders with a patented design. Milwaukee-Eight Extreme Ported four-valve cylinder heads are CNC-ported and fitted with 1mm larger-diameter valves to optimize air/fuel flow and velocity and feature fully machined combustion chambers shaped to optimize combustion efficiency. The engine is completed with a high-lift SE8-517 camshaft and high-performance cam bearing, high-compression (10.7:1) forged pistons, a 64mm throttle body and intake manifold, and high-flow (5.5-grams per second) fuel injectors. It’s a combination that produces 131 ft-lb of torque and 121 horsepower at the rear wheel when paired with Screamin’ Eagle® Street Cannon mufflers.
Each Screamin’ Eagle 131 engine is detailed with 131 Stage IV badging on the cylinder heads and timer cover. The engine is available in a choice of two finish treatments to match original motorcycle styling or a custom direction – Black and Chrome or Black and Gloss Black. There are also versions of the engine to fit motorcycles originally equipped with an oil-cooled Milwaukee-Eight engine and those equipped with the Twin-Cooled™ Milwaukee-Eight engine. The Screamin’ Eagle 131 engine is eligible for Custom Coverage under the motorcycle’s factory 24-month vehicle limited warranty when dealer-installed by an authorized H-D Dealer within 60 days of vehicle purchase, and is otherwise backed by a 12-month limited warranty.
The Screamin’ Eagle Milwaukee-Eight 131 Crate Engine ($6,195.00 oil cooled, $6,395 Twin-Cooled) fits 2017-later model Harley-Davidson Touring motorcycles originally equipped with either a Milwaukee-Eight Oil-Cooled or Twin-Cooled engine. It does not fit Trike models. Installation may require the separate purchase of additional components, depending on motorcycle model. All models require additional purchase of ECM recalibration with Screamin’ Eagle Pro Street Tuner for proper installation.
Complete fitment information can be found on H-D.com.
**The Screamin’ Eagle 131 Performance Crate Engine complies with noise and emissions standards in all U.S. states other than California on 2017-later Touring Models. Replacement engines must be re-fitted with emission control devices and systems appropriate for the vehicle model and model year in order to ensure emissions compliance. Legal for use on public roads only when installed in the specified models. Street-compliant statements may not apply to markets outside the United States. Not eligible for limited warranty when installed in models other than the ones specified. Please see the Parts and Accessories warranty statement and your H-D dealer for more information. The prices provided are the manufacturer’s suggested retail prices. Actual retail prices may vary.
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lol. 2150cc to come up with 120 hp. awesome
I think I’ll stick with my stage 2 1250 Bandit…..120hp, smooth as silk,cheap, dependable, and won’t cook my favorite bodyparts. (and cost 1/2 what that engine costs) lol
Well according to their last quarter earnings, sales, the old men are no longer buying and the younger crowd isn’t either.
Harley seems to be going in all directions. Investing big dollars in very expensive electric bikes and now this engine. I guess a new compensator will be needed to turn the primitive chain drive primary and just wait for the new drivetrain problems to show up . I can’t believe a company so blind (80 years) stick to such a badly designed drivetrain from the pressed crankshaft back.
Harley already counting the dollars as the rest of the drivetrain fails because not built for these engine specs!
I’m there with you on pressed together crankshafts. Once owned a ’78 Suzuki GS1000 with a roller bearing crank. At that time my bikes were run hard. Anyway, after having a bit of fun on it but never going over redline(8,500), I noticed the engine acquired a small amount of vibration. Took it to the local Suzuki shop. I knew the mechanic and as he took the head off, he started laughing. The piston on the far right was about a eighth of an inch lower than piston on the far left. Not too happy about that. Few months later traded it for a new Honda CB900F and never looked back. Loved that Honda.
One thing that is missing from HD’s offering is what these bike owners will do with the engines that comes out. Since this is only for 2017 and later bikes, there are going to be an awful lot of expensive low mileage motors gathering dust. Some sort of trade in program is really in order to help mitigate the cost and keep the garage clean.
No trade needed.
The motor shake itself on the road. Just need to bolt on the new one !
Ahaaaahhh !!!
What this engine is all about in my opinion, is the torque generated, not the hp number. That’s what large displacement push rod engines are all about. So is this one. By the way, it would be easy to take your 114 and get the same results with cylinders and pistons and the few other tweaks. Probably save half over the crate engine. Shout out to Motoman. Sorry about the rant the other day. Let’s just say I had a physical and I got rubbed the wrong way! Friday was a rough day and seeing the negative comments just didn’t set well. Normally just ignore it.
No sweat Kermit. I’ve had my days too that’s for sure. Peace and long life.
Thanks man. Same to you,
It’s a beautiful looking engine, but honestly the chassis will not handle the increase in power very well. A lot anti Harley Davidson folks in here, I like almost any motorcycle it’s just the rider I abhor. Most brands have followers or sheep and then multiply that by the riding segments like adventure, sport, cruiser, touring, sport-touring, dual sport, and retro. The possibilities of useless opinions is endless. Nice thing is this article has generated more action than any other introduction in last long while.
The only reason Harley Davidson has introduced this engine is because of Indian Motorcycle and the pressure the folks at Harley Davidson are feeling. Competition is good for the consumer.
Does “Twin-cooled” mean oil + water cooled heads?
Air and water cooled.
I always thought twin cooled was water glycol/ oil cooled?
I guess it could, but my understanding is that the phrase comes from the two small radiators “hidden” in each side of the fairing lowers of the touring bikes.
If you can afford it, parts and installation and calibration, and if you love Harleys, it’s very cool.
It still ain’t going to beat a Rocket III or a V-Max, but those aren’t Harleys. Let’s face it, the Harley indicator switchgear alone is worth the extra $10K over what Triumph gives you.
Harly switchgear is worth an extra $10K?
Ummm….
Did I read that right?
Please expand on your last sentence.
Well, not only does the separate turn signal system feel more substantial and work better than Triumph or BMW or Japanese, and the Cruise Control too, but the fine standard equipment self cancelling indicator system could maybe save your life by turning off indicators that, had they been accidentally left on, could have lead oncoming traffic to believe you were turning when you weren’t. Or, would you rather have $10K?
I know, I’m hyperbolizing. Great product though.
Well, not only does the separate turn signal system feel more substantial and work better than Triumph or BMW or Japanese, and the Cruise Control too, but the fine standard equipment self cancelling indicator system could maybe save your life by turning off indicators that, had they been accidentally left on, could have lead oncoming traffic to believe you were turning when you weren’t. Or, would you rather have $10K?
I know, I’m hyperbolizing. Great product though.
I do like H-Ds switch gear, but most bike I
ve seen are self canselling now.
In that spirit of false equivalency. Don’t most electric bike’s have a powerful DC motor that require more wattage to go faster and further. Some manufactures have up graded battery packs so you can do so. Extra performance with extra weight. I would never argue a smaller 600cc sports bike is better than a 1000cc. Different bikes right?
It looks cool too.
I like the idea of the crate engine. I’d say there is a good chance that this will find it’s way into the CVO series and then after a model year or two some other new models.
Regardless of what the future holds for HD they need to continue to evolve their traditional V-twins, full stop. For the same reason we won’t see BMW abandon the Boxer Twin platform. BMW is developing their 1800CC air cooled boxer motor for similar strategic reasons.
I am surprised at the negativity. No, this isn’t a high performance engine compared to motorcycle engines from other genres of bikes, not even close, but it is all relative. It offers a substantial performance increase over stock while apparently providing the same or similar levels of reliability and durability.
I think it is really cool that a manufacturer makes this kind of option available for its bikes. Had Suzuki and Kawasaki offered hopped up SV650 and Ninja650 crate engines pushing 85 to 90 hp back in the 00s, they probably would have sold like hotcakes.
Totally agree Jeremy. To each his own and I am pumped that we have this much variety to choose from.
This option would be a whole lot cooler were it not optional, but, rather, standard equipment. Why produce a very expensive, slow, underpowered bike, only to tempt buyers with a different motor that should have been included in the standard spec in the first place?
Bare minimum, this motor should at least be listed as a regular trim-package option, similar to most new cars that are offered with either a base motor or a more expensive, higher-output motor. Those higher-trim motors aren’t offered only in a crate, to be installed later, at the buyer’s expense.
This is just plain stupid. What a transparent money grab.
Oh, and yes, for that much money and 2100 CCs of displacement, plus the requirement for a set of undoubtedly loud and likely “for off-road use only” pipes, the thing seriously ought to make a whole lot more than 121 hp. It should at least make Diavel power, never mind Rocket 3 numbers.
Let’s face it… It probably doesn’t run very well without the “off-road only” accessories which I imagine is the reason it is a crate engine and not standard equipment or a factory installed option. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if they are trying to massage into the emissions friendly zone for future applications.
In the meantime, why not sell it as a high-margin accessory if you can get away with it? Harley is in the bling business after all, and a crate engine is mighty blingy. No, it isn’t very powerful by the standards most of us go by, but it will still be significantly more powerful than any of HD’s or Indian’s existing cruisers.
Plus, the fine print says the motor isn’t emissions-legal in California. It’s a 49-state motor that still requires additional emissions modifications to meet 49-state emissions standards, meaning California H-D dealers cannot legally sell, install, or warranty it. As you probably already know, nearly every other U.S.-bound motorcycle and car these days is engineered to meet 50-state emissions requirements.
So, what H-D is telling us is that unlike every other major manufacturer, and even with 2147 CCs with which to work, they still couldn’t produce a semi-competitive power output that meets basic 2020 emissions standards.
Think about it. With all of H-D’s resources, they couldn’t even manage to do what relatively tiny companies like Moto-Guzzi easily accomplish?
That’s just flat-out embarrassing.
He’s Backkkkkkkk!
Good to see you posting VLJ.
Well, it’s Jeremy, after all. I like Jeremy. Always have. He deserves some decent responses.
🙂
Haha. Well, thank you sir. Feelings mutual.
If Suzuki had hopped up the SV 650 to 85 hp using a Harley-Davidson method they would displace about 800 cc and would have made 85 hp no problem.
Percentage-wise, it would be a 750cc, but to the point, they still would have sold like hotcakes.
Bumping displacement has been a go-to method for gaining power since hotrodding first began. I don’t see why everyone wants to demonize it in this particular application. Plus for a 15% increase in displacement they are claiming a 50% increase in power (over the 114 ci M8) if their rwhp claim is realistic. So clearly there is more to it than just bumping cc’s.
You misread my meaning, I have no problem with increased displacement (but at some point are we looking at 3.0 L engines?) case in point 1982 Honda CX 500 Turbo vs the 1983 Honda CX 650 Turbo ( actually a 498 to a 673 cc if I remember correctly) horsepower increased from 77-97 and yet nobody was yelling “she’s going to blow”.
Mind you the CX platform was sturdy and the Harley Davidson 131 will overwhelm the willowy frame in which it resides.
an 800cc SV making 85-90 hp would be a great bike. I can’t believe Suzuki hasn’t done this years ago.
They did a pretty good 1,000cc version but it didn’t really take. It’s as though the market said, “That’s an SV (650) and that ain’t (1000)”. Fickle..
If you are talking the TL1000, that thing handled like a truck. An SV is light and handles very well. Same chassis or one in that vein, with a displacement bump to 800cc could be a winner IMO.
Think KTM 695/795/890 or whatever it is now or Ducati Monster 696/796/821 or what ever it is now.
Nope, he’s talking about the SV1000, which was very different from the TL1000. The SV1000 was a 2003 model, available in naked or half-faired versions. I owned both the naked SV650 and naked SV1000. I figured the 1000 would be way more fun than the 650, but nope, it wasn’t. The 1000 was torquier, but that was about it. Otherwise, it felt duller, more sanitized and neutered, less lively.
The naked 650 was a blast. That was the best SV, especially once a person threw some brakes, suspension, and exhaust at it.
Thanks for clearing that up VLJ. Had to look them up. Don’t ever remember seeing one. Seems the naked version last 2 years and the faired version 4, but I don’t ever remember seeing one.
Wonder why they bombed so badly? Handling or power? Since the 650’s were stellar sellers for Suzuki.
I’ve ridden several SV 650’s including gen 1, gen 2 and Gladius and they were fun little bikes (even considered one at one time) just needed some more oomph to make them really fun.
I remember the SV1000. I also preferred the 650 and my brother ultimately bought one. It was lighter and the engine was snappier. Knowing that it cost so much less made it feel even better!
I had a 2007 SV1000S. Last year for the US market. The 2003-04 SV1000S was a bit neutered so significant changes were made in 2005 to bring the power back up to TL levels. One of the many changes was a lightened flywheel which made the engine really snappy and fun. All the changes done made the engine much more lively. Mine in stock form, without any mods, measured 122hp at the wheel. The best I saw with the early ones was about 108. The weight difference between the 650 and 1000 is minor when considering how much more powerful the 1000 was.
If Jerry Springer ever did a show about motorcycles, this is what I’d expect.
Now that was funny. Thanks for the laugh Bob.
Childish wimps that are nothing less than non-riding snivelers filled with jealousy and hatred for HD and the folks that ride and enjoy them. If any of these pussies saw Jesus walk on water they’d whine that it’s only because he can’t swim.
Are you one of those weekend warriors who brings out his pirate custom, revs his bike at every stoplight, takes his weekly big ride 5 miles to starbucks to hang out with like minded to brag who has spent the most on chrome?
Says a guy who rides around on a slow couch…
OK, boomer. Many of us have ridden HD and see it for what it is. Now go home and get your shine box.
I can’t stop laughing about the name long enough to take him seriously. Sounds like someone created a really funny persona to me like “Alota Fagina” from Austin Powers.
Man, Enrique has some serious “I’ve been holed up in my Mom’s basement too long” problems. On the other hand, maybe he is a real tough guy as he did call everyone pussies to their face….. no, no he didn’t, he did it as an anonymous keyboard ranger….. Typical Hardley Ableson fanboy.
Enrique is funny a guy. Do you ladies fear laughter because you suffer from involuntary urinary incontinence whenever you laugh. Jesus Horatio Christ, don’t you kids crack on each other anymore?
How are you going to save the world if you can’t laugh at yourself?
We’re laughing at him right now. We’ll get back to laughing at ourselves momentarily.
Enrique rules. And I’m borrowing JHC. :>)
If all of you guys hate Harley’s so much, why did you stop and read the story, and then take even more time and comment on it? The world is full of angry, bitter people, apparently this site is full of them too. Go take your bike for a ride ( if you even have one ) maybe it’ll wipe away some of that anger.
Good advice. Just took out the Versys 650 and marveled at its refinement and value (I paid as much for it new, OTD as that crate motor) . Doesnt change my low opinion of HD and most of their deluded followers…
I just don’t understand how reading about, talking about, thinking about, riding, looking at motorcycles can incite such anger. If something triggers you that way, just stay away from it. Everyone has their favorite brand, to which I say, good for you. Some HD people are of the opinion that HD’s are the best. So what. My brother only has Euro bikes despite them being of questionable reliability/quality ( fact ). He likes to bash Harley’s too, which just makes me shake my head, knowing the MANY reliability issues he’s been through with British and Italian machines. I have a garage full of different brands, including 2 Harley, 1 BMW, 1 Kawasaki, 1 Indian and hopefully soon, a mint, low mileage Desmosidici. I like them all for different reasons and different types of riding, But they all have their issues/quirks. None of them make me angry though.
I agree with you Nathan, I own a Harley V-Rod, super reliable, but also own two Ducatis and two Hondas, all fine machines in their own way and their own reliability. It is ALL about the sport of motorcycling and NOT about what machine do you ride. There will be always the haters, I have a friend that absolutely hates Japanese motorcycles for whatever reason, so it is part of our sport to have differences in opinion and tastes as well as demographics.
Cheers to all the riders of all kinds, sport, dual sport, off road, scooters, touring, etc etc.
I’m marveled you’re bragging about a Versys! Now there’s some serious power. Better get out of the sun snowflake. Your mom will have your lunch ready here in a bit. And your lack of tolerance for others doesn’t change my opinion of snowflakes.
“And your lack of tolerance for others doesn’t change my opinion of snowflakes.” You do understand how ironic this is, don’t you?
“There’s only two things I can’t stand, people who don’t tolerate other people’s cultures, and the Dutch”… Nigel Powers
Those damned freaky deaky Dutch.
Motoman, your response is typical and expected. And yes, I do understand the irony. Maybe you weren’t paying attention. If Austin is a snowflake, wants to slam H-D, or own a Versys or whatever, fine with me. Couldn’t care less. He’s insulting whole groups of people on regular basis. On a regular basis. Or haven’t you noticed? First day onsite? Apparently he thinks he’s superior. But he brought this on himself. He has this self righteous I’m better than you attitude towards others. Just calling him on it. If you want to defend him, go ahead, that’s fine too. And like I said, typical.
Responding to Kermit: No need to get your panties in a wad Kermit. It was a joke. And, no its not my first day on the site. I don’t expect Dirck to remember, but I met him when I was working at Escondido Cycle Center in late 2001 when the Honda 919 first came out. Been visiting his site ever since.
Kermit, it was a joke. Lighten up. And, although I’m sure Dirck doesn’t remember, I met him outside Escondido Cycle Center around 2002 when I worked there. Been visiting his site ever since.
In the parking lot just outside? Was I riding a Honda 919?
Wow great memory Dirck. Yeah, that was me. I noticed you ride the Honda 919 in before we had gotten one and I had to take a look. Frank
If a guy can stuff a 707 HP Hellcrate engine in his ’73 Duster, why not this? Why does it inspire so much anger amongst you people? You can spend $70k on a Ford Raptor and then easily dump another $7k into an Edelbrock supercharger. Hotrodding is as American as “American” gets.
Nothing wrong with it other than the fact it’s just 122 hp out of 131 cubic inches!! Others have that as standard, make the damn thing push out at least a 160hp maybe harley will have a screaming eagle upgrade kit after you install the motor lol for another $5000
Right. This is not a high performance engine by a long shot.
The “performance” of an engine, doesn’t magically decrease, just because it uses CCs instead of RPMs to obtain it.
Yes, it does. What if you built an engine the size of a school bus. 20’ long, 1 million cubic inches, and it put out 122 hp. Would you consider that “high performance”? What if I built an engine you could hold in the palm of your hand that could send a motorcycle down the 1/4 mile in 11 seconds?
But weight/size of an engine is only tangentially related to HP/displacement. Look at the smallblock in the ‘Vette compared to smaller DOHC engines.
Also, for a touring bike, a much more important metric than standing quarter mile times, is how well it resists bogging down, hence requiring downshifting, when reaching a hill at cruising RPM fully loaded.
The easy rider generation is dying off.
The On any Sunday generation is moving in.
Wow. You do realize… Actually, clearly you don’t… Those two are the same generation….
Easy Rider 1969
On Any Sunday 1971
HD has to bite the bullet and leave the vtwin behind. Ducati scrambler poser bike. Honda Africa PARALLEL TWIN actual winner of actual Dakar.
Honda won the Dakar on a 450 single, the largest motorcycle engine permitted to compete in Dakar.
That’s Hardley-Ableson for ya.
I’ll stick to my Kawasaki, thanks.
I rode the new 114 engined Fat Bob. The issue is vibration. You can make the thing enormous but it is going to shake at the bottom and the top of the rpm range to do so. And my Honda VFR 750 would have blown it into the weeds nice and smooth and waaay faster with better brakes. The Harley sounds and looks cool…then breaks your back or is H E A V Y! I like Sportys tricked out with better suspension.
Would you believe a predetermined amount of that vibration is by design despite the counter-balancers? You may not, but it is.
a stock Indian Thunder stroke is already 122 hp !!
Not at all out of the question for some. I can buy a frame etc and have a 131 ci ride. Not bad! Big Dog sells this type bike out of Wichita Kansas. Therefore it can’t be a bad business model.
Fuel Moto
Happened to be paging through a Summit Racing catalog this morning. For $6,300 you can have a Chevy SP350 turnkey long block 357 HP crate engine. Just sayin’ …
Not in chrome……
Me too, looking at Summit Racing. I see Chevy LS 376 inch 530 hp fully dressed long block for $6,899.
I don’t hate Harley. It is nice they do this.
I wonder how much the labor is, and the tune, with the pipes, total package price. Closer to 10k than 6k I suppose. Plus the $25k bike. =$35k?
For the total package price, it seems high for me, based on my tastes in machines.
I would rather have an HD Aermacchi 350 than one of these. Not the Sprint 250. Yes the DKW 125.
I would assume this will be an option of production bikes going forward and no sold only as a crate engine. I think it is great theat HD offers higher performance options for it’s line up, it also offers custom builders more options.
I’d be interested in how they developed the business case for this. A crate engine swap upgrade, only for bikes 2017 and newer? I guess S&S & others do pretty well with this kind of thing?
I’m in a completely different high end business (not motorcycles). I have at least one client who bought something for $5500 April last (this type of item may have average value of $300-400), and just traded it for another similar item w/$5k SRP. He does such trading regularly, even items 4x higher SRP.
There are older high end buyers w/disposable cash that would shock the average American. They can’t take it with them later. There’s no reason not to enjoy it. Trading/upgrading is just part of the hobby.
I guess I can see it, hot rod culture. Another interesting question above, what happens to the motors that are removed? Refurbs? I hope they’re successful, even if I’m nowhere near being a customer for this. It’s a sign that enthusiasm is returning to motorcycling.
I’ll be impressed when they make an 883 that handles and shifts like an SV650.
HD – – – – Yawn.
I really don’t get it. I own a 2003 Harley V-Rod, it has already 115hp and it’s a great engine, very smooth, reliable and water cooled. With a couple of factory mods I think the V-Rod engine power could be increased to 150hp easy.
Clearly HD is spending the money in the wrong places i.e. the Livewire development…no sales volume so far.
please see my comment below. Its a d#ck measuring contest
This comment is really funny if you read it as “duck.”
yeah, it is!
No sales volume? I bought the first one to arrive in NorCal a few weeks ago. It the most advanced electric motorcycle out there. Don’t talk about something you know nothing about.
Then is fake news everywhere I guess….but Harley is already thinking of killing it.
The fact that you bought one doesn’t say anything with respect to whether or not HD is moving Livewires as expected anymore than just a bunch of chatter on the internet. (Congrats on your purchase buy the way. The Livewire is a cool bike, IMO.)
Analyst tend to think HD will manage to sell about 1000 Livewires. Only HD knows whether or not that is good or bad – no one else knows what their sales target was for the bike. No one else knows how many they will sell either unless HD releases that info.
In any case, I think the Livewire is just a halo product, designed and sold mostly to inspire interest and pave the way for cheaper more attainable electric bikes down the road. Whatever HD’s plan and whether it works out for Harley or not, I’ll bet your Livewire is going to be worth some money to collectors in the future either way. And in the meantime, enjoy the ride!
Well, apparently they sold at least one.
And that’s a real statistic!
morons everywhere rejoice. Now go home and get your shine box
So you buy a $40,000 harley then you need to spend another $6000 plus labour to make it go anywhere lol. The fools will line up for this manly power gain.
Our adrenaline-seeking riders asked for thrilling power and torque with reliability,” said Harley-Davidson Product Manager James Crean. James thought it over and advised the thrill-seekers to visit a Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Ducati dealership. LOL … IMHO once a bike weighs in over 800lbs, I might as well take the car.
Just can’t see how two +1000 cc pistons are going to throb their way into a motorcycle without producing insane amounts of heat for the rider…Heat management has always been an issue and as they get bigger the more the heat….But..I would love to roll on that tractor like torque and flywheel to light up that rear tire…..HD is having their share of motorcycles sales issues and I wonder if this is going to have any positive effect for them..seriously doubt it
It’s actually horsepower that produces heat not displacement. My lawn tractor makes about 15HP from an air cooled 725cc and you can’t get it hot enough to damage it no matter what you do.
Stricter emissions standards are mostly to “blame” for liquid-cooling. I suppose our “need” for more horsepower is a reason too.
I have replaced heads that exhaust valve seat loosened on several of those that you can’t hurt, that had mice build nests under the shroud. Word to the wise, remove the shroud in the spring and check.
Also, it’s not the torque that will “light up that rear tire” but the horsepower. I’ve used this analogy a lot but this is about the same amount of torque that a decent bicyclist can produce and I doubt that bicyclist can light up a 200mm wide tire at the back of a 700 pound bicycle.
Gearing. You are not including gearing in your equation. And continuous torque is missing too. A bicyclist can not produce sustained torque anywhere near 131 ft-lbs. And in first gear, a harley will put multiples of 131 ft-lbs of torque to the pavement due to gearing.
131 ft-lbs at a bicycle crank is the same as 131 ft-lbs at a motorcycle crank. Bicycles have gears, too, by the way… 21 of them. What the bicycle lacks in comparison is horsepower.
:sigh: I wish people would get it right! Horsepower **IS** torque, multiplied by *time*.
Horsepower = Torque X RPM / 5250
You can’t have one without the other, but Torque is the actual force created by an engine or motor. Horsepower is, therefore, simply and effectively, a measurement of how much force was applied over a measurement of time.
Most people don’t understand this: a small engine that produces 10 lb/ft of torque but spins to 50,000 RPM, produces the same horsepower as an engine that can only spin to 6,000 RPM but produces 83.4 lb/ft while doing it (both produce 95.4 HP).
But which one will feel “faster”? “More powerful”?
Horsepower is just math. Torque is actual, measurable forces created. ‘Horsepower gets you to the finish line faster’, because it *takes a certain amount of measurable time to travel the distant *to* that finish line*.
You feel torque instantly. You ‘feel’ horsepower once that torque does actual things for a while.
Most road bikes these days have 22 speeds, some of the newest have 24. None of these high end wunderbikes have a ratio below 1:1 and their top gear is 1:4.2 (1 pedal rev to ~4 wheel revs).
Cyclists measure power in watts. A really strong amateur cyclist can maintain 350 for an hour, big pros can make up over 400+ watts/hour. 1hp is 746 watts.
“:sigh: I wish people would get it right! Horsepower **IS** torque, multiplied by *time*.”
I do understand what torque and horsepower are just fine. Also, we do not feel torque, instantly or otherwise. We feel acceleration. Torque accelerates nothing without that time component in play. It is possible to have torque but not power.
As to the two hypothetical 95.4 hp engines, how they “feel” is going to be a function of gearing, not engine torque. They both have the same potential for acceleration, so they can feel the same or completely different depending on how each is geared. One engine is just going to be more frantic than the other while doing it.
I also don’t get how people tend to talk about torque being “real” while horsepower is just some mathematical construct. Horsepower is a unit of measure, just like lbs-ft. Those are metrics we use to describe the phenomenons. But just because torque is a component of horsepower does not make horsepower any less “actual.” That’s like saying the heat from the fire that cooks your food is just math… it is the chemical reaction taking place that is actual and that you feel instantly.
My air/oil cooled 2007 Softail is cooler than my five liquid cooled bikes.
So that’s because your liquid cooled bikes makes twice the HP with half the displacement. Sorry sbashir, couldn’t resist. Nice to have choices and I enjoy them all, but prefer more “efficient” motors.
Deer Harley-Davidson let’s quit pussyfooting around and get out the 151 Mad Dog
I recently purchased a Yamaha XMAX 300cc scooter and made an AMAZING discovery. It may only be 300cc, but it gets me to work every bit as fast as my old 146hp Buell 1125R used to. Last summer I rode it from New York to Pittsburgh for the MotoAmerica races and you know what? It took about the same amount of time as when I rode my K1200LT (just made one more fuel stop than I had to with the bigger bike which slowed me down). Smaller, easier to handle, FAR less expensive to ride off the showroom floor and the insurance is negligible. Don’t know why it took me so long to figure this out.
Love the XMAX, but those 2-3 inches of rear suspension aren’t exactly an ideal partner for a bad lower back. Which is, come to think of it, my main problem with Harleys, as well.
I’m 65 and have been riding without a “break in service” since 1972. I’ve owned more motorcycles than I can remember! Lots of big tour bikes of all makes including HDs. If they are trying to cater to my demographic HD is heading in the wrong direction. My bikes are getting smaller. Just bought a Yamaha XT250 to ride back roads/trails. Looking to also pick up a smaller road going bike : Honda CB500x, Kawasaki Versys 300x -(although I may wait for the 400cc version….). Point being not all, but many of us in our “golden years”, want something lighter and easier to handle, but still fun! A bigger V-twin? LOL!
Denny, I just turned 65 and also bought a Yamaha XT250. That bike is a hoot.. I love riding it!
You nailed it Denny! That’s exactly how I feel.
Also, “the older a man gets the smaller the dogs get”…
Perfect! I am couple of years older and feel same. I ride smallest size bike since restart in 1996. What a nonsense approach to motorcycle on part of HD.
Denny, lighter IS better. I believe you should hold out for the 400cc Kawasaki, they are serious about making small displacement performance bikes.
I recently sat on the z400, it feels like my old minibike.
The price actually seems reasonable considering the intended demographic. Why don’t they put this motor in a more streamlined package? Seems like that would make for a nice ride, no?
Adam said to Eve, “Stand back Eve, I don’t know how big this thing is going to get”. The displacement wars continue as “mines bigger than yours”. I guess if this is your thing, why not?
My friend is a master builder/designer of craftsman homes. He spent years remodeling his brother in law’s huge home (estimate 6k SF). When his brother in law specified the screen size in the home theater (front projector), he said, “I don’t want to visit someone else’s home and see a bigger screen.”
Cough, cough…
Yeah, we have a serious ego problem here in the USA, says the minimalist.
Impressive for a Harley. I always wonder why HD doesn’t just make these standard if they are capable of it instead of having customers pay extra? Can’t wait to hear the “Street cannons” rumbling down the block 🙂
Can’t wait to NOT hear any more Harleys with loud pipes.
These are “for off-road purposes only”.
Yeah, I was wondering whether these engines meet EPA noise and emissions standards. And of course H-D lists performance figures for when they’re equipped with “Street Cannon” mufflers, which I suspect are also not EPA approved.
I guess you didn’t bother to read the entire article before jumping to the comment section.
The engine “complies with noise and emissions standards in all U.S. states other than California”.
Last one to the next bar has to buy..
Ridiculous.
If you really want a more powerful engine then shop elsewhere. BMW R1200 gets 120 hp, and weighs much less. Better yet, since you have enough money to buy a H-D, buy a KTM instead. Or, buy any Japanese litre bike. H-D offers only high weight at high cost.
Agreed. Size for size, less power per CC than a KLR650. Lame.
OMG, if that’s accurate that is just sooo sad!
Agreed. With that sort of capacity it should be making 200hp or more.
Size for size, it’s currently outputting less power per cc than a Klr650 which I think is a mid 1980’s design…
Lame.
HP/cc doesn’t really have any effect on riding experience, one way or another. Why do people get so hung up on this?
“HP/cc doesn’t really have any effect on riding experience, one way or another.”
Huh? So a 600cc motor that makes the same HP as this 2147cc motor feels the same to you? HP/Liter is a part of the deciding factor for my riding experience. But I do like them all though.
No. They feel completely different. That’s the point, and why there are so many engine configurations. If that ratio were objectively intrinsic to the experience (Higher HP to displacement = always better), HD would’ve gone out of business decades ago and all engines would be turbo’d high-rpm screamers.
I may be reading your first post wrong then because it seems to conflict with your second post.
My 1st post isn’t as clear as it could be. What I mean is, maximum hp/cc is not universally better for every application.
A 600cc supersport engine is a marvel of high hp efficiency but it is so because there’s a racing class that limits it to 600cc. Without that limitation, a 750cc engine can be made with the same peak hp, but much broader torque and better efficiency across the board.
It would not surprise me if this big ol’ v-twin gets better fuel economy pulling around its 800lb sled than a 600ss bike does, too.
With all due respect, posters addressing the subject motor’s hp and hp to displacement ratio are simply addressing specs HD quotes in their marketing tripe, excuse me, text.
To criticize posters posting directly in response to HD’s specs seems naïve.
How can they claim torque at the rear wheel as 131 ft-lb? The CBR250R single produces 370 ft-lb at the rear wheel in first gear (25.17:1 overall gear reduction) from its 14.7 ft-lb at the crank.
Rear wheel “Crankshaft” torque. i.e. crankshaft torque calculated from rear wheel HP. Measuring torque at the rear wheel would be largely pointless, since it totally depends on the final drive ratio (unlike HP).
exactly. Everyone quotes torque figures but it is completely meaningless without knowing how much power the torque produces. Because of different gear ratios, a 100 ft-lb 100 hp engine will accelerate about twice as hard as a 100 ft-lb 50 hp engine. Because of different gear ratios, a motorcycle will accelerate much harder in 1st gear than it will in 5th gear even though the torque output is the same at the crank in both gears. Some day, people will get it.
I mean, some types of rear wheel dynos do actually measure torque (the typically spinning drum type just measures drum rpm, essentially, and imputes everything from that). And in that case you can certainly use your knowledge of the final drive ratio, wheel diameter, etc, to calculate what the crankshaft torque is (less what is lost in the driveline). Easier just to calculate torque = HP * 5252 / RPM, as RPM and HP can be measured pretty accurately, and are already anyway.
No, they just measure engine rpm with an inductive coil on a plug wire, or other methods. Comparing engine rpm to drum rpm give you your overall gear reduction.
So after spending crap loads of money on a harley, I now need to spend $6000 plus labor to make the turd go anywhere. Gotta love harley, just a branding company who would put their name on a turd to make a dollar who happens to sells motorcycles on the side.
Those are some pretty impressive specs, for a traditional aircooled’ish VTwin fitted in a bike with dimensions as relatively tidy as even a Touring Harley is these days.