Honda EV-Cub concept
An announcement by Honda earlier this week of a joint venture underscores a dramatic shift by Honda toward the development, and sale, of electric vehicles. This will include both hybrid and pure electric (battery only) powered vehicles, both four-wheel and two-wheel. That JV is between Honda and Hitachi Automotive Systems, which will form a new company focused on the development of electric engines for vehicle use.
This follows a speech last month by Honda’s CEO in Tokyo outlining Honda’s future goals as a company. In that speech, in addition to the immediate production of an electric scooter for the 2018 year, Honda intends to “electrify two-thirds of global automobile unit sales in 2030.”
In Europe, Honda may be moving even faster toward the predominance of electric vehicles. In May of this year, Honda issued a press release concerning its “state-of-the-art” 940V technology incorporated into an EV charging station it deems “Europe’s most advanced.” This seems aimed, at least initially, at automobiles, while Honda also moves forward with infrastructure development projects intended to result in battery-swap stations for scooters and motorcycles. Included in the press release is the following statement:
“This activity forms part of Honda’s commitment to an electric future in Europe, with a specific aim to have electrified powertrains in two thirds of European cars sold by 2025. Development of hybrid, plug-in hybrid, battery electric and fuel cell cars will place Europe at the forefront of Honda’s global electric vehicle strategy.”
It should be noted that Honda is a strong believer in fuel cell vehicles, while much of its competition is focused solely on battery electric and hybrid vehicles. Honda indicates that hybrid vehicles will form the bulk of its production within the next decade, but it continues to focus development efforts on fuel cell technology.
“State-of-the-art” EV charging station developed by Honda in Offenbach, Germany
See more of MD’s great photography:
If pure electric vehicles can make it without credits, there is no better start place than scooters or this cub layout. Already a great configuration for carrying motors and batteries low, there are modest performance expections for small scooters anyway, and no passenger climate control concerns to draw power. I brought my wife a prodecotech stride 400 electric bicycle 2 years ago for an introductory price of $1000 delivered and it still goes 20 mph for over 20 miles with throttle only with her and a light load on it. I would think that something with equivelant to 150 to 200cc and a 75 to 100 mile range could be done for $4-$5 k soon before credit. https://www.prodecotech.com/electric-bikes/stride-400-ms/
Drive if you want. I would not.
nice to see the environmental discussion, really ups the tone of this site, good stuff, production footprint vs utilization footprint so being a bit of a benign fabulist, if that is possible in a borges like way let me suggest the difficulty is too many people wanting solutions for more, efficiency to make more, and there it is, more space , more travel, more of everything and more is not working out well, unless you want to start believing in this quasi religion of more and its so called promises. now I am not suggesting we go less, necessity will do that but we have to get out of the primitive worship of taming the lightening god and fire of the earth god aka electricity and oil respectively. At some point, someone will make a break through discovery paradigm shift, not the tesla/musk one but a real shift where we will follow up to source sustainable renewable energy that does not rely on wires etc and old school harvesting without regard the earth’s resources.. until then, our addiction to the age of electricity is on and war of more is full bore and in the end there will be no winners, except the repair men.
re: “At some point, someone will make a break through discovery paradigm shift, not the tesla/musk one but a real shift”
well i only ask that you be careful with that kind of thinking for that’s based on an “IF”, based on something i call the MYTH OF PROGRESS.
listen to me now and believe me later (Hans/Franz voice) when i tell you the Laws governing this Universe “don’t give a rats” about mankind’s desire for FREE LUNCH. no, every equation under-girding Mathematics, Chemistry, and Physics enforces BALANCE, and you will NOT escape them whether you’re standing on the Earth, the Moon, or Mars.
in fact when you know what to look for…? you can see these equations playing out in even the smallest things in our everyday lives.
There are designs that are so iconic like the Porsche 911 and the Honda Cub. I don’t need either but I want them. The EV-Cub is just gorgeous artwork.
I agree. It is hard to stop looking at it.
Some designs are just impossible to improve upon. The Cub is one of them.
I had a chance to ride a Zero lately. Had been wanting to test an electric bike. It was kind of cool. Fast too.
Hey Jeremy how close are you to Evergreen? Will be riding out there in a couple of weeks.
Mickey, I am only about 1.5 hours from Evergreen. When are you passing through?
spending a few days out there riding mountain passes with a couple buddies from the CB forum based out of Evergreen arriving on 17th
Well, dang. I’ll be in Houston, TX that week. How long are you staying?
re: “Well, dang. I’ll be in Houston, TX that week.”
cancel, show him some love, it’s Mickey fercrissakes…!!!
Lol Norm, you nut case.
Just thought it would be fun to meet face to face if it worked out.
Heading back home on Monday the 24 th.
I’ll be back before the weekend. Not sure where you guys will be by then, but I could certainly ride out to have some lunch and tool around. If I can stand to ride that slowly 😊
🙂
Jeremy.
Email me your cell phone number to huntinsticks-at-fuse dot net
Love the SS swing arm on that scooter. Thinking that my next bike will be an EV
I rode an electric assist bicycle for the first time recently, a Trek. I was amazed, gliding along silently and serenely at 25-30 in town without breaking a sweat. The future is almost here and we will probably like it.
I completely agree. There are so many different kinds of rides I want to go on, and a quick trip across town would be awesome on a good e-bike. A commute on an e-motorcycle would be good too.
My ideal garage has so many different kinds of bikes, and many of them could be electric. Just need the money, and the garage, and the bikes.
I suspect, someday soon, gasoline IC engines will seem as antique as shoveling coal into a firebox and raising steam pressure on a locomotive. It will be nothing more than a nostalgic novelty.
How much energy does it take to extract lithium and turn it into a battery?
You bring up a point that the average lay person does not grasp. If you look at the complete cycle from exploration, then extraction, distillation and distribution to the consumer, liquid fossil fuels provide more btu’s out than it took to complete the cycle. Mother nature and the sun did most of the production for you. With ethanol, it’s a loss – it takes more btu’s, (usually in gasoline/diesel-based farming methods) to make than you get out. Batteries are WAY out of range. So, at the current state of technology – the world will consume more btu’s, not less, after converting to electric. Sadly most of the ‘more’ will have to be fossil. So yes, we are talking more carbon/pollution/enviro-impact than the current liquid fossil system.
You are correct on all points. There is a glimmer for batteries and that is increasing the efficiency in the re-charge cycle. Theoretically, if we limit the recharge cycle to efficient non-fossil (solar?) methods, and increase the technology to allow for unlimited charge/recharge cycles, then asymptotically you can start to off-set production costs and carbon impact and approach (and maybe pass) 1:1 btu output to consumption ratio.
re: “There is a glimmer for batteries”
no worries, those sparks are the just Lithium in the substrate going into AUTO IGNITION…
https://tinyurl.com/ydhfbuav
behold gentleman the Law of No Free Lunch. in 2017 you can both “shoot your eye out” AND blow your nuts off at the same time. great time to be alive innit…?
Are you telling me electric cars increase pollution? Algore will not be pleased to hear you say that.
Re: “How much energy does it take to extract lithium and turn it into a battery?”
A tiny fraction of what an IC engine wastes over it’s life simply making heat waste. The battery in a Chevy volt holds as much btu as 1.8 gallons of gasoline, and runs the car for 240+ miles. It takes 8+ gallons of gasoline to run a similar IC car the same distance.
Yes, but the voltage in the chevy battery probably came from coal, so what is the point?
The point is that it doesn’t have to come from coal. And there are still many benefits to an electric powertrain unrelated to the source of its charge.
And even if the energy does come from coal, much more of that energy turns into power for the vehicle instead of heat waste so regardless of the original of the power, efficiency can be gained. Batteries will get bigger and better so that someday, your roof will spend the daylight hours charging your home’s central battery, which you’ll use to charge your car and run your home overnight. Wind power can figure in, or maybe this type of power network is localized to your neighborhood. Power can be made much closer to where it’ll be used, saving
all those transmission losses. If enough of that happens, the need for large scale central power production lessens, less stuff gets burned. It could be good.
Dave, the solar technology sounds good for those who can afford it, but most of the planet struggles to afford a couple thousand for a motorcycle, let alone the cost of replacing regular shingles on their homes. I’m all for the solar shingles and equipment needed to utilize them, but probably less than 10% of the world’s population will ever be able to afford it, unless socialism is adopted (which would bring its own set of hurdles.)
That’s where we are today. As these technologies increase in volume, their costs will drop. Even so, if 10% of the population adopted these options, along with businesses who can parlay it into financial savings/gain, it would have a significant impact.
re: “And there are still many benefits to an electric powertrain unrelated to the source of its charge.”
correct, though the emissions don’t go anywhere – ie. Matter is neither created nor destroyed, Law Conservation of MASS, Antoine Lavoisier circa 1785 (the only Law more powerful than NATCORK) – there is/are REAL benefits to trying to displace SOME of the tailpipe emissions from inside the congested traffic of city centers.
i can imagine the immediate health benefits for asthmatics and those with other respiratory ailments when NY, LA, London, Paris, Tokyo etc finally declare only Zero emissions vehicles will be allowed inside city limits. i’m really surprised ‘Frisco or up in Oregon or Washington or some other area replete with “tree hugging” types hasn’t already done this…? dunno, maybe they have…?
This is one reason why fuel cells are being pursued. Direct converson from fuel to direct current.
IC engines generally after accounting for friction lose 1/3 of energy out of the exhaust pipe as heat, 1/3 via radiator or air cooling losses, and apply the remaining 1/3 to propelling the vehicle. Until you change materials to operate at higher internal temperatures or otherwise eliminate losses that’s were you’re at. 38% thermal efficiency is headline stuff. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091436_toyota-gasoline-engine-achieves-thermal-efficiency-of-38-percent
My father in law worked in and built power plants all his professional career. Studied all the power producing methods (coal, gas, wind, solar, turbines, 2 and 4 strokes, etc) At this time the IC engine is incredibly efficient. He recently stated 45-55 percent, as in almost half of the BTU in the fuel is turned into power to the ground. The most efficient power plants are no more than 33-34% efficient. So yeah, it takes more total energy to get it to and out of your battery operated car. It doesn’t matter that your Chevy volt itself can run 240 miles on 1.8 gallons equivalent, because before that a lot of energy, and less efficient energy sources, were used to get it to your car. The modern IC engine is still the overall cost/efficiency champ (in part because we’ve spent 100+ years on IC technology and infrastructure). Recharging a novelty amount of electric cars doesn’t affect the infrastructure right now. Imagine how much more power generation and facilities we’d need if all the vehicles on the road were magically suddenly electric.
He also states that liquid fuel is actually a very clean and efficient power plant fuel, far better than coal? Why not more gas fired plants? Cuz in the 70s we were supposedly going to run out of natural gas, so they started converting all the gas plants to coal plants. Now we all know we have hundreds of years of gas.
The dumb thing about solar and wind power (on a commercial scale) is that every single MW generated needs a MW of traditional coal/hydro/gas plant backing it up. Since they don’t consistently make power, you can’t just abandon plants that can be run all the time for ones dependent on the right weather.
re: “Imagine how much more power generation and facilities we’d need if all the vehicles on the road were magically suddenly electric.”
Nuclear Power Plants are gonna have a MELTDOWN…!!!
(oh wait, that’s not good thing, aw man)
That’s all well and good but you are not counting all the energy and effort that goes into oil exploration, extraction, refining and transportation before it gets to the gas station, and not even counting all the wars, terrorism and hundreds of thousands of dead people in Iraq and Iran because of oil. Cannot look at just one side of the picture. Solar and wind may need backup power plants but they are not running all the time. Nuclear holds the most promise if it can be made safe.
re: “Nuclear holds the most promise if it can be made safe.”
ladies and gentlemen/boys and girls for your viewing pleasure…
the propositional “IF” statement.
Cue the documentary on Chernoble
re: “Cue the documentary on Chernoble”
make it a “double header” with the fresh nightmare that was/is Fukushima.
Not a chance IC engines in production are >40% thermal efficiency, then you have tranmission, tire rolling resistance, friction etc.
Once lithium has been extracted, it can be used over and over in batteries and recycled into more batteries. With solar charging of batteries there is no additional resources used. Solar panels can power your house as well as your transportation. Solar and wind are the future.
If the state of the art battery assemblies continue to shrink, and the industry could form/fit standardize/unitize, I can foresee pulling in and swapping out instead of charging up.
re: “I can foresee pulling in and swapping out instead of charging up.”
i can see foresee in only 90 days time people continuing to get their nuts blown off by the battery in Samsung’s Galaxy Note 8. lay people don’t understand how the electron count in the outer shell of elements like Lithium (Li) and Sodium’s (Na) and their position on the Periodic Table classify them as EXPLOSIVES. hence the reason these things continue to happen, Boeing knows what i’m talking about.
(note to self, do NOT put your new phone in your front pocket Norm)
Just because lithium is explosive doesn’t mean it cannot be used safely. Look at Tesla and Zero. Tesla offered to help Boeing but they were too proud and just encapsulated the problem in steel. Any source of energy is going to be dangerous. Electricity killed a lot of people before standards were developed and enforced. Gasoline is explosive but technology and standards overcame the danger. Solar can burn in a few seconds if the collectors are misdirected. The issue with cell phone batteries is they are trying to concentrate a lot of energy in a flat space which reduces the separation between the layers. Car and motorcycle batteries use LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) which does not explode.
re: “Car and motorcycle batteries use LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) which does not explode.”
think happy thoughts (and then hold on to them with a kung-fu grip).
News flash….Electricity STILL kills a “lot” of people as you put it, despite developed and enforced standards.
this is what will turn the tides and push the technology forward for better or worse. Volvo just announced that it will only produce electric vehicles going forward:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/business/energy-environment/volvo-hybrid-electric-car.html
Gee, only about ten years behind Tesla.
Maybe they can build one regular people can afford. Isn’t the cheapest Tesla like $ 70 grand
The Tesla Model 3 is about $30K after the federal tax credit. It goes on sale this month. If you want one the waiting list is more than 400K long.
And the Chevy Bolt is about $35k and available now. A $35k car that requires no gas or oil changes is really more like a $22k car over the average ownership cycle.
Or I can buy a K75S for $3,000 and add a hundred thousand trouble free miles to the odometer. When I’m done with it, I can sell it to the next guy for $2,500. Easier parking, less impact on infrastructure than an electric or hybrid car, lower operating cost and insurance, I can split lanes and use the HOV facilities, it’s a whole lot more enjoyable to use, and I don’t feel like a pretentious, over-privileged, entitled yuppie.
Volvo announced that they will only build hybrids or EVs. That is a huge difference than only electric especially considering the majority of those hybrids will be 48V mild hybrids.
My Prius has 2 electric motors but it is 100% powered by gasoline. It just is a very efficient way to burn gas.
Don’t think 100% powered by gas is correct because as with all hybrids you have substantial regenerative energy also charging the battery pack.
He is right because energy is only being produced by gasoline (unless it is a plug-in hybrid). The batteries are only storing the mechanical energy usually wasted during braking.
We should all go back to horses
re: “We should all go back to horses”
no, best to keep our lazy asses off those too. there are places where they still roam free here in ‘Murica, so don’t go getting any bright ideas alright…
https://tinyurl.com/yc625vcr
we can just WALK (or ride). push bikes are an integral part of life in the Netherlands. following their example, i try to do both.
hey, quit looking at my gut I’M WORKING ON IT…!!! (Middle Aged Man)
Funny how all of a sudden Honda is pushing mostly electric power for vehicles. Just a few years ago fuel cell is all they were interested in. Since Tesla has come on the scene, all has changed when it comes to electric vehicles. Honda has just introduced the Clarity EV, but it is already behind the times with it’s dismal miles per charge of 80. Nissan’s Leaf has had that approximate mileage for years. GM’s new Chevy Bolt has 238 miles per charge (appx). The new Nissan Leaf will have closer to 200 miles per charge. Oh yea, and the OMG chargers that Honda seems to be touting with what appears to be solar panels to help generate electric for the chargers, Tesla has been doing that too with their SuperCharger network that exists now. And as far as Honda coming out with an electric scooter, even Hyosung has one already on the market. Behind again Big Red.
re: “Since Tesla has come on the scene, all has changed when it comes to electric vehicles. Honda has just introduced the Clarity EV, but it is already behind the times”
that’s a Bingo…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugpg8XruhVk
none of their efforts qualify them for status as LEADER, at least not in the EV sector anyways.
Q: how many MK1 Prius can a person see still running during rush hour on the 880 outside Frisco…?
A: can’t throw a rock without hitting one.
While the Prius probably is the most widely available hybrid, even Toyota is now somewhat behind with the Prius Prime plug-in with dismal miles, and their SUV that I think are both just regular hybrids and not plug-ins, although that will be changing. I’m sure now with current battery technology that all electric powered vehicles whether hybrid, or plug-in will be getting better all electric mileage.
re: “Toyota is now somewhat behind with the Prius Prime plug-in with dismal miles”
forget the range, that things needs to be taken to the range and shot. they err’d this time out on the packing, WAAAAYY too “space-shippy”. wait, is that a word…?
A: yes.
They are behind, but when a giant like Honda commits to a trajectory, impressive things can happen.
re: “when a giant like Honda commits to a trajectory, impressive things can happen”
since Honda’s known for their “quiet” gen-sets, if they want to impress me (which i’m sure they don’t) they can do so by making a fuel cell generator powered by natural gas and/or propane to replace my EB5000i. i can then pick up/exchange the gas bottles from my local welding supply.
however (comma) until they do that, Norm is left with no other recourse but to flash Big Red his best Mckayla Maroney face…
https://tinyurl.com/hkpuyc2
Tesla Superchargers use grid electricity, not solar power. The Honda charging station is using solar power. Honda and Volvo are pushing electric power in Europe because it may become required by law. It has nothing to do with Tesla. Buying the Chevy Bolt for $43,000 instead of buying a Honda Civic for $18,000 (which is also extremely fuel efficient) doesn’t make any sense.
re: “Honda and Volvo are pushing electric power in Europe because it may become required by law.”
close, Honda and Volvo are pushing electric power in Europe because of…
(wait for it)
VAG (no not that one the other one) see entry for DIESELGATE. that my friend was the $15 Billion dollar (with a B) “pebble in the pond”. what the European Union, the Japanese, and the Chinese are now up to are merely the RIPPLES in the water, or is that blood i see washing up on the shoreline…? (OMG)
France is the latest to say they’re going to “bring the pain”, ok ok not till 2040…
https://tinyurl.com/y7vxxyow
Autos (or any moving device for that matter) will still need lubrication whether powered by electricity or fossil fuel, so I don’t think oil will become worthless, but certainly not as valuable
About the only thing that will need lubrication is maybe some bearings and steering joints, other than that, oil use in electric vehicles will be very very little.
All of the plastic throughout the vehicle is made by “fossil” fuels. You also have brake hydraulics and possibly steering fluid. There should also be a (single or multi-speed) transmission that needs lubrication. Bearing lubrication and bushing and ball joint grease hardly ever needs to get changed anyway.
Sealed hub motors don’t need lubrication or a transmission.
Plastics, lubricants and a host of additional products are made from oil and its derivatives. Oil won’t be worthless but if current use as a bulk fuel commodity is massively reduced then the issue of production cost becomes a major factor for oil market viability.
The Stone Age did not end because there was a shortage of stones – hydrogen is the fuel of the future
Thank goodness they still make Vienerschliden (Vaseline). Hydrogen would look like a replay of the Hindenburgh and I don’t like if it burns. Just saying, as I’m as relevant as most here.
Electric is the future.
It takes more energy to produce hydrogen than it creates when it burns so it is a net loss and is not practical as a fuel. Hydrogen fuel cells are not dangerous. Only free standing hydrogen (like in the Hindenburg) is dangerous. The future is electricity produced by solar and wind (and possibly nuclear).
This is why Saudi Arabia says that oil will be worthless in 30 yrs. I love that charging station. Even the canopy is used to generate electricity.
Autos (or any moving device for that matter) will still need lubrication whether powered by electricity or fossil fuel, so I don’t think oil will become worthless, but certainly not as valuable
As oil becomes scarce, it will become extremely valuable. We’re already fighting proxy wars over minor reserves (remember, we get most of our foreign oil from Canada). All the more reason to stop burning it. Better to use it for durable goods and burn something else.
Hey Dave – Canadian oil is as clean any other. do your research and stop listening to the eviro nut cases
No it isn’t. Tar sand oil has a dismal EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested). Tar sand oil is at about 3 while conventional is about 15.
“As oil becomes scarce”-LOL. I haven’t heard that since the 70’s. We got so much oil there’s no where to store it. Why do you think OPEC keeps trying to have production cuts.
re: “We got so much oil there’s no where to store it.”
aw man, sucks to be Texas. looks like they’re going to have to rethink all that secession hubris (not that the U.S. Gub’mint was ever going to allow them a “snowball’s chance” anyway).
Bill, I never commented on how clean or not Canadian oil is, only that they are the US’s main foreign supplier.
Tank, we’re literally wringing oil out of sand. That’s not abundance, that’s desperation. Who cares if there’s an overage today. The fact remains that the amount of oil we have on earth is not growing and extracting / refining is only going to get more expensive.
OPEC wants production cuts because they want the price to go back up since oil is the primary revenue stream of many OPEC nations. See Norm G.’s comment at the bottom.
Wringing out the The tar sands, yes, but there’s oil off the east and west coast that waiting. They have shut down many of the gulf coast rigs because fracking is cheap. Then there’s the synthetic fuel used by the US fleet 20x more expensive than the natural stuff. Exxon is coming up with even cheaper syn fuel. So don’t write off ic engine yet.
The hydrid and electric Vehicle might price themselves out of the market.
Dave, if you think it’s getting more expensive to extract oil, you probably don’t know about horizontal drilling. If you think we are in “desperation” mode over oil supply, why are we exporting over one million barrels a day?
re: “Dave, if you think it’s getting more expensive to extract oil, you probably don’t know about horizontal drilling.”
i drink your milkshake… sluurrrp…
I DRINK IT UP…!!! 🙂 (Daniel Plainview voice)
Recoverable oil reserves are going up faster than demand. It is estimated that given present recoverable oil reserves and projected demand, we have over 400 years of oil reserves. By then we will have developed alternative sources of energy that actually make sense.
Pennzoil is now making a better motor oil out of natural gas.
Natural gas has been the base ingredient for making synthetic oil for some time now, Mobil tried to stop Castrol from claiming their product was a synthetic because it wasn’t based on PAO’s.
As far as the Canadian oil sourced from the tar sands, it is clean but takes more energy to extract.
re: “Pennzoil is now making a better motor oil out of natural gas.”
iirc they even do an oil with a percentage based on recycled stock….? or is that Valvoline…? don’t know if they’re still making such a product, but i met one of their chemists 2 or 3 years ago on a flight out of town. a true Boffin, he seemed to delight in the fact that on this trip he was sitting next to someone who at least knew something of what the hell he was talking about. lol (see entry for Hydrocarbon Chains)
re: “This is why Saudi Arabia says that oil will be worthless in 30 yrs.”
gotta consider the source, gotta put this in context, to a Sheik that’s a “relative statement”. to the person who’s only ever seen TRILLIONS their whole life…? “worthless” means now having to ADJUST/DOWNGRADE his lifestyle to BILLIONS (see entry for Aviation, Lorry, and Construction sectors, etc)
omg, he’s gonna have a MELTDOWN…!!!